What does attributed to mean

[fidleir]

http://www.sheppards.ie/lot/violin-circa-1900

 

Is this violin Italian and what does school o fBisiach mean?

[martin swan]

Bonus material – your cut-out-and-keep guide to violin auction terminology:

1. By Leandro Bisiach

Well none of us were there at the time but there’s broad agreement that this was made by Bisiach or by someone in his workshop, or was ordered by Bisiach from Nonno down the road … or maybe Nonno’s brother. But Bisiach definitely made it or had it made and the label is legit.

2. ASCRIBED TO Leandro Bisiach

Not by Bisiach, but it has a certificate from Jacques Francais from 1995 so if you’re unscrupulous you should be able to sell it as a Bisiach.

3. ATTRIBUTED TO Leandro Bisiach

The owner refuses to believe this isn’t a Bisiach because they paid a lot of money for it in the 1930s. They would only consign it if we also agreed that it might be a Bisiach and was worth more than it really is, so we’ve put a punchy estimate on it … but it ain’t a Bisiach

4. WORKSHOP OF Leandro Bisiach

Sort of like number 1 but we’re not 100% sure. Might have been made by Nonno’s brother – definitely that sort of thing.

5. CIRCLE OF Leandro Bisiach

This is probably a Linguine. You know, Linguine was always jealous of Bisiach. I reckon he half-inched some of that nice quilted maple and a label or two and knocked this one up out of sheer spite. It does look incredibly like a Bisiach except it doesn’t have any f-holes.

6. FOLLOWER OF Leandro Bisiach; AND SCHOOL OF Leandro Bisiach

It’s a fake. You can kid yourself that it’s a Sgarabotto but we did a dendro and it can’t be.

7. LABELLED OR STAMPED OR INSCRIBED Leandro Bisiach

Get real, this is the violin trade ….

[jacobsaunders]

Bonus material – your cut-out-and-keep guide to violin auction terminology:

1. By Leandro Bisiach

Well none of us were there at the time but there’s broad agreement that this was made by Bisiach or by someone in his workshop, or was ordered by Bisiach from Nonno down the road … or maybe Nonno’s brother. But Bisiach definitely made it or had it made and the label is legit.

2. ASCRIBED TO Leandro Bisiach

Not by Bisiach, but it has a certificate from Jacques Francais from 1995 so if you’re unscrupulous you should be able to sell it as a Bisiach.

3. ATTRIBUTED TO Leandro Bisiach

The owner refuses to believe this isn’t a Bisiach because they paid a lot of money for it in the 1930s. They would only consign it if we also agreed that it might be a Bisiach and was worth more than it really is, so we’ve put a punchy estimate on it … but it ain’t a Bisiach

4. WORKSHOP OF Leandro Bisiach

Sort of like number 1 but we’re not 100% sure. Might have been made by Nonno’s brother – definitely that sort of thing.

5. CIRCLE OF Leandro Bisiach

This is probably a Linguine. You know, Linguine was always jealous of Bisiach. I reckon he half-inched some of that nice quilted maple and a label or two and knocked this one up out of sheer spite. It does look incredibly like a Bisiach except it doesn’t have any f-holes.

6. FOLLOWER OF Leandro Bisiach; AND SCHOOL OF Leandro Bisiach

It’s a fake. You can kid yourself that it’s a Sgarabotto but we did a dendro and it can’t be.

7. LABELLED OR STAMPED OR INSCRIBED Leandro Bisiach

Get real, this is the violin trade ….

It's curious Martin. I just scoured your web site, and couldn't find this glossary anywhere

[chrissweden]

I think it has to do with this:

Authorship is described in the following ways:

• By Antonio Stradivari: The authors of this catalog believe in their best judgment that this work was made by this maker and guarantee it to be so. For further information on this guarantee, please see our Terms of Use.
• Attributed to Antonio Stradivari: A work believed to be by this maker by popular consensus or past opinion, but not by the authors of this catalog.
• Ascribed to Antonio Stradivari: A work believed to be by this maker in the opinion of the authors of the accompanying certificates or letters, but not by the authors of this catalog.
• Probably (or possibly) by Antonio Stradivari: A work about which there is divided opinion.
• Under the direction of Antonio Stradivari: A work executed under the guidance of and with the direct involvement of this maker.
• Workshop of Antonio Stradivari: A work executed in the style of this maker, most probably under his supervision and with his involvement.
• Circle of: A work believed to be by someone associated with the maker, working under his direct or indirect influence.
• School of Antonio Stradivari: The work of a follower of the maker or region stated.
• Labeled (or stamped, branded) Antonio Stradivari: An instrument not necessarily the work of the maker stated but labeled or branded as such.

[fidleir]

Anyone like to hazard a guess as to its origin.

[LeMaster]

F*ck*ng brilliant.  I needed this morning laff.

 

Thanks to everyone!!!

[martin swan]

It's curious Martin. I just scoured your web site, and couldn't find this glossary anywhere

It was in a blog post a few months back - it's still in the "news" section ....

[Michael_Molnar]

Well, it's brilliant. 

[palousian]

I think the consensus is that if you were to buy this violin, you'll want to stick around and bid on lot #1491.  You're going to need it.

 

http://www.sheppards.ie/lot/glenmorangie-single-highland-malt-scotch-whiskey

[Will L]

Wherever it came from it is hilarious.  Thanks Martin.  I was about to attribute—perhaps even ascribe— the quote to you.  

[martin swan]

Yes I wrote it, for my sins ...

But if you're going to quote it, I think it might be better to say "ascribed to circle of Martin Swan". That way I won't get duffed up in a dark alley by an auctioneer.

[Will L]

 

We could have some fun by trying to write the most confusing papers.

 

"This violin has been ascribed by attributors to a camp follower of the circle of..."

 

I made the mistake of buying a violin once—lo those many years ago—which Hill stated was in "very fair condition."  To the uninitiated, "very fair" sounds nice.   When I started counting the cracks, I realized I had better learn the vernacular.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Many of us who produce appraisal documents include a glossary to clarify our personal opinions (by, attributed to, ascribed to, etc.) in contrast to previous opinion.  I believe I published mine in a thread a while back.  I don't think it's nearly as entertaining as Martin's, but I imagine a court might not find the humor in his as much as we do.  

[duane88]

I enjoy the more recent use of the ,"Orbit of..." designation. Eccentric or concentric, and is is better if I get it when they were closer?

[funnyope]

 WE could add 'outer circler', 'inner circle', 'innermost circle', and 'periphery' to add to the shades of meaning. Quite appropriate, IMO.

 

 And Martin, thank you so much for the info + entertainment. I got a good laugh out of it.

[funnyope]

Many of us who produce appraisal documents include a glossary to clarify our personal opinions (by, attributed to, ascribed to, etc.) in contrast to previous opinion.  I believe I published mine in a thread a while back.  I don't think it's nearly as entertaining as Martin's, but I imagine a court might not find the humor in his as much as we do.  

 

 Not if the judge is a VSA judge.

[Will L]

FWIW department, meaning there is no connection between this post and the topic:

 

Wurlitzer, Rembert, had a framed certification from some lady in Oklahoma which read something like the following.  It was the worst I can recall.  Even though I don't have the exact words, you'll get the gist easily enuf [sic]:

 

The violin in the possession of _________________ was made by the great maker Joseph Guarius in 1741.  Not everyone has the knowledge. I am the only person in the world with the ability to tell the work of Guarius.  It is a God given ability.  Not everyone can tell the work of Guarius.  I am happy to tell you your violin is a Guarius.  I am one of the few people blessed to recognize your violin and able to write such papers as these.

 

Signed,

 

_________________________ , August 12, 1927.

 

Now, to be fair, if it turns out that there is indeed a maker named Guarius, I'd have to say this expert should set up shop in New York and wait for another one to come through the door.  I feel a nagging sense of ignorance not knowing of or about such an iconic maker.

 

I wish I had made a copy of those papers because they were far funnier than my weak efforts to recreate the original.  I'm hoping that by sheer chance someone who reads this owns that wonderful little gem of violin lore and might be kind enough to post the original.  It must be someplace, because just as the violins of Guarius are too valuable to toss, so are papers regarding Guarius!

[Rue]

Funny stuff!

Not violin related....but it reminds me of a guy that brought his "purebred cockapoo" to the clinic one day and proudly told us all that the dog had papers to prove it was purebred.

[Carl Stross]

FWIW department, meaning there is no connection between this post and the topic:

 

Wurlitzer, Rembert, had a framed certification from some lady in Oklahoma 

 

 

Not Florida ???

[funnyope]

Funny stuff!

Not violin related....but it reminds me of a guy that brought his "purebred cockapoo" to the clinic one day and proudly told us all that the dog had papers to prove it was purebred.

It's sad but hilarious at times how naive some can be. I guess knowledge is power.

[Will L]

Not Florida ???

 

Hmm!  Do you know something about violin expertise in Florida that might keep us out of trouble?  

 

No, I buy all my Guariuses  in Tulsa.  For Poggis I head for Korea.  (very inside joke, hopefully; I don't want to get in hot water)

[funnyope]

Hmm!  Do you know something about violin expertise in Florida that might keep us out of trouble?  

 

No, I buy all my Guarliuses  in Tulsa.  For Poggis I head for Korea.  (very inside joke, hopefully; I don't want to get in hot water)

 

 It's interesting how money circulates around the world.

 

 I think you are getting at dishonest dealerships in Asia. I wouldn't go there. We'd have to cover the entire world. (Not to mention B's in UK and what they're doing)

[Carl Stross]

1. Hmm!  Do you know something about violin expertise in Florida that might keep us out of trouble?  

 

2. No, I buy all my Guarliuses  in Tulsa.  For Poggis I head for Korea.  (very inside joke, hopefully; I don't want to get in hot water)

 

1. Yes.

 

2. You are already in hot water...

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

 

For Poggis I head for Korea.  (very inside joke, hopefully; I don't want to get in hot water)

 

I believe Rosand got some snickers from the crowd while giving a masterclass in Seoul when he expounded on his Bolognese beauty by name (he left his del Gesu at home).

[Will L]

I believe Rosand got some snickers from the crowd while giving a masterclass in Seoul when he expounded on his Bolognese beauty by name (he left his del Gesu at home).

Bingo, you got it.  

 

Actually, however, I  heard a Korean pronouncing their word and it is slightly different.

 

BTW there is a Henry Poggi playing for Michigan:

 

http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/henry_poggi_850862.html