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stradel

Sound development of a new violin

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Here are two synthesized G tones. One uses the first 20 harmonics. The other omits the first harmonic from the synthesis.

wavedata_G_With_Fundamental.wav

wavedata_G_No_Fundamental.wav

The main difference between the two is the one without the fundamental sounds a little thin and perhaps a bit harsher than the one with the fundamental harmonic, but sounds like the same note to my ear.

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Here are two synthesized G tones. One uses the first 20 harmonics. The other omits the first harmonic from the synthesis.

attachicon.gifwavedata_G_With_Fundamental.wav

attachicon.gifwavedata_G_No_Fundamental.wav

The main difference between the two is the one without the fundamental sounds a little thin and perhaps a bit harsher than the one with the fundamental harmonic, but sounds like the same note to my ear.

That's interesting.  For me, with the fundamentals sounds like a lower frequency than without, and the without sound kind of buzzy which is probably what you mean by harsher.  

 

-Jim

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The tone without the fundamental certainly sounds "false" to me, like, as you noticed, a bit out of tune.

I might have mentioned in another post a similar experience I had with the D string on a violin. One could carefully tune it with a tuner to be within 1c of its equal temper or just intonation frequency. But when playing something in the key of D, whenever landing on the open string at the end of a musical cadence, it sounded off. When I did a spectral analysis of the open D, I found the first harmonic was greatly reduced compared to the other harmonics.

Back on topic: I finished a review of various studies on the aging of oil and spirit varnishes. For finishes NOT subjected to accelerated aging (such as heat or UV treatments)...

Oil/Resin varnishes show dramatic changes in acoustical properties, such as density, sound speed and stiffness, over the initial two days, then tapered off over 20 days. Some things, like density, would start to measurably decay after the two day mark, but would eventually stabilize after 20 days.

Spirit/Shellac varnish acoustic properties stabilize with hours of application, then slowly taper to "final" values over 20 days.

Accelerated aging tests, like UV curing for oil/resin varnishes and heat curing for spirit/shellac varnishes were unavailable to me. From personal experience, I know heat curing of spirit varnishes can reduce the aging process from days to minutes.

Some studies measured changes in response spectra of varnished, thin wood plates over time. There were some significant shifts in modal frequencies and amplitudes as both spirit and oil varnishes cured.

An experiment I am tempted to try is to perform a tap test/spectral analysis of a new violin over time, but unstrung in order to simplify the focus to just changes in the top plate. White, after initial curing, then every day for at least 20 days. On overlay of modes under 1KHz might reveal the need to age a newly varnished violin, naturally or accelerated, for some time before completing setup.

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Here are two synthesized G tones. One uses the first 20 harmonics. The other omits the first harmonic from the synthesis.attachicon.gifwavedata_G_With_Fundamental.wavattachicon.gifwavedata_G_No_Fundamental.wavThe main difference between the two is the one without the fundamental sounds a little thin and perhaps a bit harsher than the one with the fundamental harmonic, but sounds like the same note to my ear.

Very intriguing. The one w/o fundamental sounds 'core-lacking' to me. Thank you very much for this.

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Carmen, what you describe is very interesting. Certainly because I think your experience and mine overlap in some areas.

I think David described the fundamental-less G as playing tricks on ears and such, but we are still accurately 'perceiving/hearing' the note G. As such, is it really a mind trick? Just curious about this phenomenon.

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I am duly impressed! You can do it all! I am also jealous! :)

You should ...most definitely...post photos.

You can:

1. Link from Photobucket...or similar site.

2. Upload from your computer.

3. Upoad from your smartphone.

Which would you prefer?

 

I suppose the computer.  I don't know the Photobucket thing and don't have a smartphone.  I've just bought a new printer, so maybe in the process of setting that up I can figure out how to post pictures.

 

Regarding your nice comment that "I can do it all..." I suppose I can, but that doesn't mean I can do it all well. I have said for years that what my career lacks in depth it makes up for in breadth:  I'm about 46,000 square miles wide but only 1 inch deep.

 

IMO, that makes me good for giving out information at a kiosk in the lobby at the next VSA convention.   :)  

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Okay then!

 

When you plan to post, click on the box More Reply Options (lower right)

That will take you to another screen.

In that screen, look for Attach Files and click on Choose File

A new window will pop up for your computer.  Find your photo and click on it and hit 'open'

Click on Attach This File

 

It will then show up as a strip in your post.

 

You can then click on Add Reply

 

It will post.

 

You have to do that for each picture.  Once you know where to click it only takes a second...

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...that "I can do it all..." I suppose I can, but that doesn't mean I can do it all well. I have said for years that what my career lacks in depth it makes up for in breadth:  I'm about 46,000 square miles wide but only 1 inch deep.

 

IMO, that makes me good for giving out information at a kiosk in the lobby at the next VSA convention.   :)  

 

We need specialists and generalists.  We have lost generalists, which is too bad because specialists are often too involved in their area to see the big picture.

 

I see this happening everywhere, schools, private industry, government...

 

It's so nice to be able to have people to go to, to ask questions of, who can either answer them or direct you to a source.

 

...in fact, I just lost 3 weeks to miscommunication with a person who couldn't be bothered to answer her phone.  I thought we were almost done the deal, today I finally tracked her down only to find out we have to start from scratch.  Gee thanks...it was a rush to begin with...now we're on Plan C to try to make do.... :angry:

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I think David described the fundamental-less G as playing tricks on ears and such, but we are still accurately 'perceiving/hearing' the note G. As such, is it really a mind trick? Just curious about this phenomenon.

These, and "Tartini" or heterodyne tones (such as DGV mentioned) are mostly thought of that way, since they are perceived, but don't show up in many other ways, like on a spectrum analyzer program.

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The fundamental is there but has lower power.

 

 

These, and "Tartini" or heterodyne tones (such as DGV mentioned) are mostly thought of that way, since they are perceived, but don't show up in many other ways, like on a spectrum analyzer program.

 

Tuning.

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There are lots of complications to pitch and sound perception.  Sort of like optical illusions, there also are some harmonic or aural illusions.

 

The ear/brain is very interested in perceiving which sounds 'belong together.  When partials fall into harmonic series, the ear/brain tends to jump to unifying the partials as a tone, and will 'fill in blanks' to achieve this.   For many reasons, analyzing togetherness and Independence of tones is non trivial. And first off, the ear receives sound broken out into partials physically stimulated in the ear.  So the brain always has the task of putting the pieces together.

 

In a way, music and harmony may be viewed as playing with our ear/brain's attempt to understand unity and independence among tones.

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