Sign in to follow this  
groovyshuffle

fingerboard edge

Recommended Posts

If it also is a design feature, could it be that my violin has this accentuated scoop for a reason? 

(ps I'm also trying to artificially bump up my posts to get permission to post a photo)

 

You can use a photo website and link the the images in your post without a wait.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

31 at neck bottom, 17.5 spread at nut, 34.5 at bridge.

But 2.4 mm clearance of e string from edge, worst around b

With 31mm which is already on the narrow side at the end of the neck, your string spacing seems to be excessively wide which contributes to the lack of ebony where it is needed. If you can play with a narrower string spacing at the upper nut and at the bridge you indirectly gain more space outside of the g and e on the fingerboard. Many musicians can play comfortably with 16 mm  at the nut and 33 mm at the bridge crest. You can also shift the string positions slightly toward the bass side instead of centered and this will give you even more space where you need it.

 

You say 2.4 mm from the e-string to the edge. What is the measurement in the same position from the g-string to the bass side edge?

 

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

?

 

Hi Michael,

 

Could you explain the question mark.

 

I measure string groove positions center to center. This already gives slightly more room from the e-string to the edge because of the difference in string thickness between the e string and the g string.

 

The numbers don't add up?

 

Why should they add up on a diagram for a 16.5mm string spacing?  I was talking about 16 mm, g to e center to center. For 16.5 mm the number above would read 8.25. I don't bother to measure distances like that. I set the outer two points (g and e) and then I use my dividers to get equal distances. Same method I use at the bridge crest.

 

EDIT: Sorry Michael, I misinterpreted your diagram. :unsure:  I now understand it to mean 8 mm from the center of the upper nut gives you the position for the e-string groove. The other strings you have spaced 5.5 mm apart from each other, center to center. This is probably a good method if you are mostly making new instruments but I find that everybody has different size hands and finger tips so I tend to adjust the measurements to fit the hand.

 

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Bruce you are right with the different size of the hands and players taste. It´s not only the string spacing, also the wide of the fingerboard, edge- and neckshape /thickness.

 

I took this out of "The Strad" Trade secret by Andrew Finnigan (Nov. 2013 page 78)

 

 

 

 

 

post-1262-0-54700300-1478031730_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With 31mm which is already on the narrow side at the end of the neck, your string spacing seems to be excessively wide which contributes to the lack of ebony where it is needed. If you can play with a narrower string spacing at the upper nut and at the bridge you indirectly gain more space outside of the g and e on the fingerboard. Many musicians can play comfortably with 16 mm  at the nut and 33 mm at the bridge crest. You can also shift the string positions slightly toward the bass side instead of centered and this will give you even more space where you need it.

 

You say 2.4 mm from the e-string to the edge. What is the measurement in the same position from the g-string to the bass side edge?

 

Bruce

Thanks, Bruce. 

On corresponding g side it is about 3.5mm.  

I suppose, even upon application of your excellent suggestions, I'd still be left with an irregular scoop on that e side. In and of itself this is a bit disconcerting, as I tend to have a glancing contact point on the index finger to guide my hand in playing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Bruce. 

On corresponding g side it is about 3.5mm.  

I suppose, even upon application of your excellent suggestions, I'd still be left with an irregular scoop on that e side. In and of itself this is a bit disconcerting, as I tend to have a glancing contact point on the index finger to guide my hand in playing.

You may have a crooked neck pointing off to the g-string side. Sometimes when fitting a new fingerboard to a crooked neck the repairman will modify the scoop on one side or another of the fingerboard to get it pointing as much in the right direction as possible. This is not a good way to repair. If the scoop on the treble side of the fingerboard is greater than it is on the bass side then this may be the reason for the excess scoop.

 

Check to see if your bridge is in the right place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

?

This diagram shows how to offset the nut grooves to give the treble side (E string) a bit more real estate than the bass side while respecting the standard 16.5 mm spacing.  Commonly the treble side will have 4 mm space to the edge compared to 3.5 mm for the bass side.  Sometimes it ends up being evenly centered.  There was a good discussion about this a few years back here:  http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/322396-nut-slots-offset-or-centered/

 

16.5  mm        Compton / Speak

16.3  mm        Srobel

16 -16.5  mm  Weisshaar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, finally a picture if anyone would care to take a look and comment. Hard to tell from a picture, I know. 

Cheers

Yup, it's really hollow on the treble side, with most of it appearing to be between the upper nut and the heel.

But it also looks like the string spacing is hellatiously wide at the upper nut. Do you need that width to play comfortably, or can you play with an E to G spacing more in the 16 to 17mm range, center-to-center?

 

If so, a decent bandaid might be to leave the G where it is, and move the other strings toward the bass side. Or maybe all the strings will need to be moved over.

 

LOL, "spellchecker" wanted me to change bandaid into bar maid. :lol:

Violadamore, is that based on spellcheck spying on my browsing habits? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it also looks like the string spacing is hellatiously wide at the upper nut. Do you need that width to play comfortably,

The upper nut meaning above the playing length?  Would that affect playability....

 

My current violin, which needs some repair, btw, has an unusually broad distance between strings.  I have smallish hands as our next president was accused of having, but that spacing was a real revelation.  My first reaction was oh, f*** this is too wide, but I found it is wonderful for facility and it seems to eliminate hand cramping type problems which I always had.  Broader is better.  It takes a lot of width to interfere with double stop 5ths, evidenced by the fact that you can do them way up the fingerboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The upper nut meaning above the playing length?  Would that affect playability....

 

My current violin, which needs some repair, btw, has an unusually broad distance between strings.  I have smallish hands as our next president was accused of having, but that spacing was a real revelation.  My first reaction was oh, f*** this is too wide, but I found it is wonderful for facility and it seems to eliminate hand cramping type problems which I always had.  Broader is better.  It takes a lot of width to interfere with double stop 5ths, evidenced by the fact that you can do them way up the fingerboard.

Whatever works for you. While there's a set of standard or "starting point" measurements, they aren't inviolable, and are often moved around to suit the needs of the player, as others have mentioned.

 

so does any point along the length of the FB represent a breach of the minimum free space outside the e? can the weird hollow be fixed or should i just try to put up with it?

I don't see an easy, inexpensive, and kosher way of getting rid of the the hollow, from what I can see in the photo. If you really need to get rid of it, you might be looking at a neck graft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to upload a slightly better pic to get some feedback. This pic illustrates more faithfully the available free space outside the e. Clearly upon depressing the string in playing the space increases ever so slightly as the path of least resistance is inwards a bit.  How does this look, honestly? 

 

post-80892-0-13079900-1479217447_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, the Neck is very waisted and wouldn't be good enough for many players.

I couldn't sell a violin like that, and if I were buying it I'd have to take the cost of a neck into consideration. But there are lots of players who seem to play merrily away on violins whose setups are a bit off. If you're comfortable with it why do anything?

Next time you have it serviced you might consider the nut. The gap between the G and D seems a bit wide, and the strings could all be shifted to the bass a whisper if you want more fingerboard on the E side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re-positioning the strings will likely require a new nut, and possibly a new bridge, depending how much meat is left to work with. The strings could all be shuffled towards the G side a little. Again, you don't want the G too close to the edge either, otherwise you could roll off the edge on the other side of the fingerboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading back, I see that your strings are set at 17.5 mm at the nut.

I set up my own violins at a shy 16mm and have never been asked for wider. I've often advised players to have me narrow wider string spacings, with very satisfactory results.

If you had your violin maker make a new nut, leave the G where it is and move the rest over you'd gain 1.5mm and that would make a great difference. If he smooths the fingerboard at the same time, be sure he leaves the treble edge well defined. I had to replace a board recently because the last guy had rounded off that edge too much and left it unplayable for the owner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading back, I see that your strings are set at 17.5 mm at the nut.

I set up my own violins at a shy 16mm and have never been asked for wider. I've often advised players to have me narrow wider string spacings, with very satisfactory results.

If you had your violin maker make a new nut, leave the G where it is and move the rest over you'd gain 1.5mm and that would make a great difference. If he smooths the fingerboard at the same time, be sure he leaves the treble edge well defined. I had to replace a board recently because the last guy had rounded off that edge too much and left it unplayable for the owner.

Fully agree with Conor on this. It is by far the easiest and least expensive adjustment that you can do and, if you don't like it, you can put back the old upper nut. Who could ask for more?

 

You have been given a myriad of suggestions anywhere from a full blown neck graft and new fingerboard to something as simple as changing the string spacing at the upper nut. Conor's suggestion is a good place to start even if later you decide to go further with it.

 

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.