Vuillaume bow with screws - fake or real?

[Thomasgammeltoft]

Dear all,

 

I recently acquired a cello from a reputable auction house stamped and sold to be from the JB Vuillaume workshop. Bow looks nice if on the lighter side, but what got me wonder was when I removed the frog and found that the underslide is screwed down with two iron flat head screws. This would normally get my "German copy" bells ringing, but I am too soon to pass judgment here? Pictures can be provided if need be.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Thomas

[Jeffrey Holmes]

You are too soon passing judgement.

[Thomasgammeltoft]

You are too soon passing judgement.

My apologies if I seemed preconceived. But thank you kindly for the answer, I take it to imply that this is not inconceivable - glad to hear so.

 

Kind regards,

 

Thomas

[fiddlecollector]

Is it a frog with a curved underslide or the normal type.  Most of the curved ones are pinned but a lot of the Vuillaume shop makers used screws  on normal style underslide frogs.

[Thomasgammeltoft]

This one has the curved underslide / Vuillaume track in the stick. But glad to hear that it is not entirely uncommon practice.

[petrus of mantua]

This one has the curved underslide / Vuillaume track in the stick. But glad to hear that it is not entirely uncommon practice.

[Violadamore]

[Hears a cry come in the window, "Somebody screwed my Vuillaume!!"  Shakes her head sadly, mutters, "...dogs and cats, living together...", and continues sharpening a gouge. ]

 

Useful thread, thanks.

[martin swan]

e. sartory slide with screws.jpg

I think it's very rare to see the circular type underslide with screws ... though fiddlecollector and Jeffrey are much more knowledgeable on this point than I am.

If there are screws on an authentic Vuillaume they will be iron not silver, and most likely pretty corroded (if original).

The photo quoted above is of an underslide for a standard octagonal mount, and a Sartory I assume?

[nathan slobodkin]

To paraphrase J Saunders. How can you identify a bow by looking up it's arse? Can you really see enough in the underside of the frog to identify a Sartory? Care to enlighten me on what you are seeing?

[martin swan]

It says so on the photo ...!

But I asked the question because the screws and their positioning don't seem right for Sartory. 

[martin swan]

Here is a Vuillaume frog by Joseph Henry with typically corroded iron screws.

Here is a Sartory frog with steel screws.

In my limited experience standard silver and ebony mounted Sartorys are always pinned, whereas screws are found on gold bows and bows with tortoiseshell frogs. I would be interested to know from other members if this is a rule or just a general pattern (or plain wrong).

 

The placement of pins and/or screws doesn't vary much for any given maker.

 

[Janito]

In a recent lecture Isaac Salchow said many Sartory frogs were made by others, eg. :

> early period by Prell,

> mid-period by Fetique

> late period by Gillet.

[martin swan]

Well, many Sartory bows were made by others ie. Jules Fétique, one of the Morizots, and Louis Gillet.

But the model tends to remain the same - just as with Vuillaume, whose bows were made by a dozen different makers, but to a specific model or two.

[Janito]

Well, many Sartory bows were made by others ie. Jules Fétique, one of the Morizots, and Louis Gillet.

 

The impression I got was that the sticks were more frequently made by Sartory himself, the frogs less often.  

[martin swan]

Yes absolutely 

 

Ultimately a Sartory is a Sartory, just as a Vuillaume is a Vuillaume.

[Violadamore]

............. a reputable auction house..........................

Yup, the one I normally trade through has a reputation, too.  I thought they all had reputations [Plays a few bars of "Only The Good Die Young", and returns to counting soundpost cracks visible at the current B********'s auction]

[petrus of mantua]

bye

[martin swan]

Those are two quite different approaches to making a bow ... it would be helpful to see each head separately.

And does either of these relate to the head with the silver screws in the underslide?

[petrus of mantua]

bye fool.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Other than one head being slightly taller (and has a longer nose) than the other, the not often seen "nick" is visible on the underside of each shaft, behind the downturn of the throats. The first image belongs to another bow.

 

I'm honestly not following you, or at least not understanding your point. Are you speaking of the exaggerated curve behind the head (which is atypical of Sartory)?  BTW: Overlays often tend to distort or confuse the images more than clarify them.  At least one (if not both) images appear to be from a text.  Which text?  Also, how did discussion go from Vuillaume bows to Sartory?  Did we cross the Charles Peccatte bridge while I wasn't looking?  

[martin swan]

I think Petrus of Mantua must have clocked that I was questioning the authenticity of the Sartory he presented in post 6.

I was also unsure what that image had to do with the subject at hand.

 

So then I ended up posting images of Vuillaume screws and Sartory screws ... mea culpa.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I think Petrus of Mantua must have clocked that I was questioning the authenticity of the Sartory he presented in post 6.

I was also unsure what that image had to do with the subject at hand.

 

So then I ended up posting images of Vuillaume screws and Sartory screws ... mea culpa.

 

OK.     I started to get a bit confused at the first frog post.

[petrus of mantua]

bye

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Sorry if the superimposed images were confusing, Mr. Holmes, (downloaded from the internet.)

 

 

Mind giving the web addresses for those images?

[petrus of mantua]

Mind giving the web addresses for those images?

If it was possible to do so, I'd be more than happy to oblige.