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A Tribute to Neil Ertz


Matthew Hannafin
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 I don't know a bout the Kreisler but just for fun I took a quick look at the Tarisio website and from that viewing there are many possibilities. To mention a few, all angled to the front, all angled to the back, upper and lower angled towards the center and visa versa, mix of vertical and angled

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51 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

 So unless I hear other wise , that's what I will do.

IMO, as this will not be a bench copy I would advocate for 'conceptual' rendition of the Kreisler.  In other words, if it looks good, it is, irrespective of the original, but always to the highest standards possible

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Thanks, John for providing that link.  Those nice open source pictures were part of why the Kreisler became our model.  I didn't know there were more than one GdG's that were called the Kreisler.  How many Del Gesu's does a guy need?!

Janito, I like the term "conceptual rendition" you used.  I agree it's important to work to a high standard.  I think taking our time like we are, and passing along the ribs with the plates should keep things tidy, and avoid the chance of any big boo-boos.  I think having something that works and simply "is good" is priority #1.  That being said, anybody working on the project who wishes to really get into the spirit of the Kreisler is of course, welcome to do so.

There's a nice article from Roger Hargrave's website here: http://www.roger-hargrave.de/PDF/Artikel/Strad/Artikel_1988_05_Del_Gesu_Guarneri_Kreisler_PDF.pdf

 

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20 hours ago, Janito said:

IMO, as this will not be a bench copy I would advocate for 'conceptual' rendition of the Kreisler.  In other words, if it looks good, it is, irrespective of the original, but always to the highest standards possible

I strongly agree with and like the term "conceptual" as well. That said, I just want to be sure that my "concept" is in line with others ......LOL

John/Matt Thanks for linking the pic's and R's article, They are however somewhat at odds , The Pic's show 1730 ???? Rodger's is dated 1733 , yet he states it could have been made earlier. ??? are we discussing the same instrument?  Rodgers article also states the CC bouts flame reversed from the lowers. whereas the linked pic's seem to show the flame following it's self all round the rib set. Whats a boy to do? As usual one of the best aspects of participating in projects like this is the element of growth and education available.  Thoughts anyone? I still have some wiggle room to make changes.

As far as learning goes...... last night after gluing in a set of willow blocks from a supplier,(my first time using them) I went to carve them and found the line of split to be waaaay off. as in really bad. No more, only split blocking only from now on. the current blocks will come off and be replaced with some very nice spruce ones ,end cuts from larger top blanks .  Live and burn ...live and burn.

    

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Well spotted, James!  That is certainly a contradiction between the article and the photos.  Who knows what happened.  I'm pretty sure the article is about the same fiddle in the LOC though.  With the William Thompson stamp, and the donation to the Library mentioned in Roger's article.  I feel like I've read about this mix up with dates before too.

 

That all said, I think flipped c-bouts look a bit dramatic & in place on a Guarneri...but I suppose that's our modern age wanting everything to be easily classifiable!  Which-ever way you want to do it is just fine IMO.  Sorry to hear about your willow not splitting well.  I had gotten some willow not too long ago that had small knots almost everywhere...one showed up when I was cutting the neck mortise!

 

Cheers

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1 hour ago, James M. Jones said:

I strongly agree with and like the term "conceptual" as well. That said, I just want to be sure that my "concept" is in line with others ......LOL

John/Matt Thanks for linking the pic's and R's article, They are however somewhat at odds , The Pic's show 1730 ???? Rodger's is dated 1733 , yet he states it could have been made earlier. ??? are we discussing the same instrument?  Rodgers article also states the CC bouts flame reversed from the lowers. whereas the linked pic's seem to show the flame following it's self all round the rib set. Whats a boy to do? As usual one of the best aspects of participating in projects like this is the element of growth and education available.  Thoughts anyone? I still have some wiggle room to make changes.

As far as learning goes...... last night after gluing in a set of willow blocks from a supplier,(my first time using them) I went to carve them and found the line of split to be waaaay off. as in really bad. No more, only split blocking only from now on. the current blocks will come off and be replaced with some very nice spruce ones ,end cuts from larger top blanks .  Live and burn ...live and burn.

    

Something seems to be amiss with the side views in the LOC photo set. They show a violin with an ebony collar on the button, but the back view of the instrument doesn't show this. In the Biddulph book, the side views show the c-bout flames reversed as Roger describes*. The  LOC violin (dated 1730) is the same instrument (apart from the side view cock-up) as the one described in Roger's article and in the Biddulph book.

There also seems to be another "Kreisler" dated 1732 (http://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=40549) as well as the 1741 instrument currently played by Znaider. 

*actually, looking again it's the flame direction of the upper bouts that's reversed

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Not the best picture of the Kreisler's ribs.  It shows the upperbout flames angled opposite the c-bout flames.  The reflection may show the lower bout and c-bout the same way.  I took this picture at the LOC and the placard from it's display case reads 1730.

-Jim

 

Kreisler profile in sun.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/6/2017 at 10:04 AM, Janito said:

The Kreisler in the LOC has had a couple of dates attached to it and this has caused confusion.

I posted the Strad and Hargrave's book renditions of the Kreisler in Janito's Bench (I cannot paste it correctly).

Note the different dates and colour hues.

 

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IMG_1048.JPGIMG_1043.JPGThe ribs are done. Here are some process pics.This is my bending rig, Primative,I know ,but does the work.on the left side is a jig, special made, for the cc bouts. I get them hot and roughed in then quick slide the rib into the jig while still hot and clamp down till cool and dry. A few hours by the wood. Stove does the trick.

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33 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

IMG_1048.JPGIMG_1043.JPGThe ribs are done. Here are some process pics.This is my bending rig, Primative,I know ,but does the work.on the left side is a jig, special made, for the cc bouts. I get them hot and roughed in then quick slide the rib into the jig while still hot and clamp down till cool and dry. A few hours by the wood. Stove does the trick.

I like the C-bout rib cool down jig thing.  I plan on copying that.  Where did you get or what did you make your bending strap out of?  Mine has refused to return to flat after it's first use, which makes using it a real pain.  Great work on the rest.  Can't wait until you clear the tech hurdle for loading the pic of the full rib assembly.

Cheers,

Jim

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23 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

The outside strap is thick harness leather smooth side in, the wood handles are glued and nailed on ,I found it nessisary to have a spacer block somewhere out side of the clamp to get good distribution,just glued in a small block. When the rib comes out it fits pretty much perfect.

Good info for building the jig.  But I was asking about the bending strap setting off to the right.

Thanks,

Jim

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Ah ! That's .2 mm thick 2 inches wide and 14 long , blue temperd shim stock , sorry I forget where I got it from. I used some brass sheet formed to a hindge shape to take some big handles , but never really liked using them, but the brass ends make for good handles. What are you using now? 

 Got some finished rib set pic's loaded up now. 

IMG_2218.JPGIMG_2225.JPGIMG_2226.JPG

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7 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Ah ! That's .2 mm thick 2 inches wide and 14 long , blue temperd shim stock , sorry I forget where I got it from. I used some brass sheet formed to a hindge shape to take some big handles , but never really liked using them, but the brass ends make for good handles. What are you using now? 

 Got some finished rib set pic's loaded up now.

Good, I have blue spring steel from McMaster Carr (sp?) that I made my scrapers out of.  My strap is the stainless steel straps sold by IVC.   Nice clean work!

-Jim

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As far as commentary goes......

 The wood was fantastic to work with,Thanks out to Rodger H for that... well quartered and annular lines parallel to the ribs was good . Moreover it seemed to want to bend, with just enough depth of flame to hold it's own during the bending process, yet still have a strong visual pop. 

 For thickness I measured and worked to a standard, then adjusted for feel, looking for hot spots and tight spots, looking for a smooth feel , not just measurements. 

....split your own blocks ...do not use factory ... slightly embarrassing , but a good way to learn. Even if you plan on using some mechanical aids to form the shape like a sanding drum, CNC or what not , having the blocks split will pave a smooth road for anyone working on it years down the road.

 On bending , my general rules to follow include using only "just enough" water , no soaking, as it seems to loosen things to much , The iron should boil a drop /spritz and sizzle , but not so hot as to burn, I go in with quick touches, check often, and listen almost as much a feel for the bend.

 Pulling hard on the straps, and pinching the ends of the rib stock to stop it from sliding on the strap, will go a long way toward preventing blowouts on the off side.

 Rehearsing the movements and having everything laid out well serves as well. Bending ribs is different from other process in violin making, even good makers don't bend a set often, it's really a twelve minute process for a 120 hour build . So I like to wrap my head around it while I can , the shop gets cleaned,(much needed anyway) cutting tools get put away, final positions/ lay of flames of ribs checked..rechecked ,  Like a dog circling to lay down.... bending the cc bouts wrong is a pain..  

 One thought I use when bending is to start small and go big, I will heat up the strap /then stock on the top flat of the iron, flip it to the gently curved face and then pull it around the horn , this way the whole piece of wood is more or less ready to go as it hits the tight curve. From here one of two directions are possible ...or more.... either hold in place till the wood has baked to dry against the iron ,or pop it quick into a form. both work , the baking chances burning , and seems to leave thing maybe a bit more solid and permanent  , the form seems to have a bit more ability to flex and be modified . don't know how much is  true about that last statement ... never actually tested it measurement wise, but....

 Some thing I did different this time was , using yellow low tack tape to separate the form from the ribs , soap often leaves some residue , easily cleaned , but .... also used low tack yellow tape around the outside to keep things clean , had a small section of the cc ribs pick up the tape after clamping the liners in . that little extra pressure , not much pulled off , just a flake maybe just less than a mm, OK for a DGU I'm hopping. but something to watch for in the future when using the method. , unfortunately the tape was long gone by the time I discovered the flaw... , 

 I like using the inner form for the CC bouts , the forma major does the heavy lifting for the uppers and lowers , After all is said and done with liners installed, I like heat up some dihydrous monoxide, to the point where it violently vaporizes, and then using a clean white old natural cloth , lightly apply it to all the exposed surfaces, both to clean and help set the shape. set to dry. 

 

   

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2 hours ago, James M. Jones said:

As far as commentary goes......

  For thickness I measured and worked to a standard, then adjusted for feel, looking for hot spots and tight spots, looking for a smooth feel , not just measurements.   

Where are the residual toothed-blade marks - going for a 'clean' concept? :)

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