carrying power

[Johnmasters]

Right,  conservation of (radiated) energy.   "I" must be in power per square unit.   Drops off as the square of the distance.

[David Beard]

Right -- and simple, if you're sound source is a pure sine wave and your audience microphones and computers.   But if you're looking at human perception in a musical performance context, then simple might slip away.

[Will L]

I figured at the time the fiddle was probably worth whatever it might cost. Of course, the person holding it is pretty important.

Regards,

Tim

 

IMO, the violinist is always the most important factor.  But without a violin which will keep the player happy, comfortable, injury-free, and able to expand musical and emotional content, a violinist is going to be at a disadvantage.

 

As to projection or "carrying power" I'll mention an interesting story that Dorothy DeLay told me:

 

She had a a very talented student who had a very small, sweet tone.  She tried everything to make him develop a more forceful tone.  Finally she said, "Look Felix (real name withheld  ), for this week until your next lesson, you will play everything with only 3 contact points: on the bridge, very close to the bridge, and a little farther down. At no time will you play anywhere near the fingerboard.  The closer to the bridge the better."  Then she demonstrated for me and I was surprised at what she was suggesting.

 

She said that at the end of one week Felix, "now had a powerful projecting tone."

 

I think there are a couple of morals to the story.  One is that we mortals don't always have the right concept of what a soloist's tone should be like under the ear; perhaps that is in part because we almost always hear soloists from a distance or on a recording.  Another is that if a violin doesn't have a certain projective, powerful tone built in, then the player has the tendency to force the issue.  To the extent a violin is a "weak sister" a player can become very frustrated, perhaps from having to be too attentive to continually finding the  "perfect spot."  (This applies to the left hand/fingers, too.)

 

It occurs to me that what we describe as flexibility of tone on a violin may also be that a violin will allow us to not continually have to look for the maximum, but will give us good, usable tone even when we aren't in the "perfect spot."  This frees up the player in an almost magical way, and perhaps some other players on MN have had this experience.

 

IMO, a confusion is caused when we hear a soloist playing a mediocre violin—in a shop, for example—because the soloist can make anything sound better than we can, and can sound pretty good for a while.  The question to me is whether a soloist can thrive on a limited instrument over an extended period of time, or whether he is just surviving.  Of course, no doubt, some people can bull their way through things longer than others; and that is the other thing that confuses the issue.  Some players are just stronger or more driven.  And, after all, if it is our job to play we have to play on whatever we have.

[martin swan]

If anyone is interested in projection, here is a wonderful clip of Ida Haendel

 

 

most notable at about 2H30, but it's worth watching from about 2H15. The difference in sound between the student and Haendel playing the same violin is simply incredible, even if she's a bit shaky.

[Michael_Molnar]

Night and day.

[Davide Sora]

 The difference in sound between the student and Haendel playing the same violin is simply incredible, even if she's a bit shaky.

 

 

Wow, the difference is truly remarkable, I am also convinced that the violinist plays a major role in the sound projection.

But it's quite difficult to say to a violinist who is trying your violin to decide whether to buy it and says it misses projection : "hey, you are the problem, not the violin"

Surely he does not take well the criticism, I believe that the sale would fail anyway....

 

Thanks for the link, I will try to suggest to listen to this video, to support my argument and soften criticism

[MANFIO]

Yes, but Ida Haendel is a soloists and in general soloists produce a big sound.

 

Projection is important but since the players can't be playi the instrument and being in the audience to listen at the same time, the sound under the ear is very important for players.

 

It is hard to play an instrument that sounds bad under the ear but projects well.

[martin swan]

In my view projection is a technique, volume is a measurable physical phenomenon.

A concert soloist needs volume under the ear, but they create the projection.

 

Audibility (either under the ear or in the back row of a concert hall against an orchestra) is a whole other kettle of fish, and probably more to do with specific frequencies than sound pressure levels.

[Johnmasters]

Right -- and simple, if you're sound source is a pure sine wave and your audience microphones and computers.   But if you're looking at human perception in a musical performance context, then simple might slip away.

The formula did not contain human perception,  but I agree with you.  A certain kind of tone/sound may be distinctive enough to stand out from an orchestra.  Also,  knowing how to push the violin independent of what the "kind of tone" is.......

[David Burgess]

The difference between Ida and the student sounds remarkable, but when Ida is playing, the sound is being picked up and amplified through her lapel mic.

 

My first clue was that when she played, the character of the sound totally changed, to that of a violin being very close mic'd. So I started looking for the microphone, and noticed the wire running from her lapel to the box attached to her waistband in back. (the box can be seen when she faces away from the audience)

 

This is not to say, by any means, that the player doesn't have a huge role in how well a violin projects.

[Carl Stross]

The difference between Ida and the student sounds remarkable, but when Ida is playing, the sound is being picked up and amplified through her lapel mic.

 

Could you not've waited another page or so ? 

[Rue]

I love Ms. Haendel...especially the more I watch her in videos...lol.  She's great...

 

I think nerves factor into it too.  Unless one is very polished and confident (or 6 years old  ) - one is going to 'hold back' in front of an audience.  So is the young player giving his all?  Or is he holding back?  Ida is not holding back, she has nothing to lose...

 

I think that's a factor in it all too...

[martin swan]

The difference between Ida and the student sounds remarkable, but when Ida is playing, the sound is being picked up and amplified through her lapel mic.

 

My first clue was that when she played, the character of the sound totally changed, to that of a violin being very close mic'd. So I started looking for the microphone, and noticed the wire running from her lapel to the box attached to her waistband in back. (the box can be seen when she faces away from the audience)

 

This is not to say, by any means, that the player doesn't have a huge role in how well a violin projects.

Haha, well spotted, not sure how I missed that. i suppose it's a good lesson. The evidence seemed to support my beliefs so I took it at face value ....

[Davide Sora]

The difference between Ida and the student sounds remarkable, but when Ida is playing, the sound is being picked up and amplified through her lapel mic.

 

My first clue was that when she played, the character of the sound totally changed, to that of a violin being very close mic'd. So I started looking for the microphone, and noticed the wire running from her lapel to the box attached to her waistband in back. (the box can be seen when she faces away from the audience)

 

This is not to say, by any means, that the player doesn't have a huge role in how well a violin projects.

 

In fact I was amazed, the difference seemed to me a little excessive , as if the violin had been plugged into an amplifier.....

Mistery solved and lesson learned, next time I'll have to watch the video, instead of just listening and keep working.  

[martin swan]

Maybe the audience and Haendel herself were all caught up in the same misunderstanding, since I suppose the clip mike was coming through a PA in the hall.

[David Burgess]

Looking through the video a little more, I do notice that this particular instrument seems weak, compared to others in the same setting, even though the player appears to have a technique which should be capable of pulling a strong sound.

 

And while I didn't watch the entire video, wasn't this the only player singled out for questions about who made the fiddle, upon Ida noticing a wimpy sound level? So maybe it was mostly the fiddle, in this case.

 

Things like this can happen.

 

In all the testing and "shootouts" I've been involved in, one thing that's clearly emerged is that some fiddles are (or seem to an audience) to be significantly  louder or weaker than others.

[martin swan]

It was glaringly obvious as soon as you mentioned it that the fiddle was being picked up by Haendel's tie mike.

But it was also glaringly obvious that this player was inaudible compared to others participating in the masterclass. 

 

I agree with your observation about shootouts - but these have always been solo violin, which generally seems to me to be a pretty pointless exercise. The only blind testing I've been involved in that used an orchestra was the Fritz-Curtin experiment in Paris. In that context I have to say that the differences in audibility between different fiddles was minimal/negligible. But all the participants were concert soloists, and none of them seemed to struggle to be heard.

 

In all comparative listening tests, I still think that physical volume is not the same as audibility. Obviously SPL is helpful when performing against an orchestra or in any decent sized hall, but it's not sufficient ...

 

Interesting to think that all the great classical instruments were made at a time when performance spaces were too small to require or exploit their unique powers of projection ...!

[Peter Lynch]

What is also interesting about the video is how much is there to inform the maker of what is needed as well.   The amazing diversity of potential(s) that is required (in the instrument) for the violinist to rely on and be inspired by.  To see what is needed from the musicians vantage point and to have as much imagination as the musician does in developing the concept of what goes into a great violin.  It is not a cliche to say that the violins needs to be capable of expressing all of human emotions and imagination (because that is what it does) .  Love Ida Haendel 

[Will L]

A little after 2:30 she says, "...we want to play piano but we want to be heard."  IMO, that is one often forgotten thing that separates better violins from lesser ones.  IMO, having an extended range of usable tone is what it's all about.  Lesser instruments fizzle in pianissimo and break in double forte; of course all violins fizzle or break eventually.  But better instruments seem to still project a good tone longer in both directions.

 

Making a range of dynamics on the violin—and really any acoustic instrument—has to be manipulated by the player.  I say "manipulated" because it is often impossible to really play piano or double forte in the true sense, so we have to develop the illusion we are playing something noticeably louder or softer than we really are. 

 

Since a violin is rather limited, a concerned player is always in search of ways to capture the listener's ear.  Emphasizing the dynamics is one way to do that.  A variety of factors are going to effect how we do it, or how well we can do it.  The hall, the instrumentation, the instrument all come into play.  But the general rule is if we want to make something stand out noticeably we have to carefully grade what comes before and after it.  If our instrument won't retain a core of sound in piano ( a usable tone), then we start off at a disadvantage.  I'm not sure I'm explaining this well so here's an analogy:

 

If we are painting a brilliant sunrise, the best we can do is leave the sun blank on the canvas (of course with a little yellow wash) and surround it with subdued color; because the pure white of the canvas is as bright as we can get.  (In art class they teach tone from 1-10, black to white.  It's how we manipulate everything in the middle that is the skill.  (Violins have a 1-10, too.)  If our canvas is off-white or dirty to start, we are already at a disadvantage and have to adjust all the other colors by toning them down.  The range has become smaller.  If the canvas is dirty enough, we have to give up and change the title to "Rising Moon."   (Notice, by the way, how dull our little yellow friend is surrounded by all this white.)  If we surround our sun with bright carnival colors, then we no longer give the illusion of brilliance.  The whole painting may be bright but the sun will no longer be a focal point.  In playing we desperately need all the focal points we can get to keep the listener involved: that there old "perfect violin tone" alone will not do it for us.

 

So, for example, if we have a subito pianissimo coming up with a mezzo forte before it, and later we have a subito forte coming up with another mezzo forte before it, we don't necessarily play the two mezzos the same.  Before the pianissimo we play it louder, before the double forte we play it softer.  All this is theoretical, but handy.  And to the extent our violin gives us good usable tone at the extremes we don't have as much to worry to fuss with.

 

—MO    

[martin swan]

Will L, I like your description.

The film director David Lean used to talk about this - he said that in order to make dramatic moments more dramatic, he ensured that the audience was a little bored by the time it happened.

His favourite example was Omar Sharif in Lawrence of Arabia emerging from a mirage on the back of a camel ... he made the sequence about 3 times longer than it needed to be, just to set up Sharif's hilariously deadpan debut : "He is dead!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud1zpHW3ito