Sign in to follow this  
Peter K-G

Recognizing special sound qualities from recordings

Recommended Posts

What do you like and why?

Like many others I too have a distinct; this one has it/that one don't. The old Cremonese sound? can't tell because some modern new violins has it right from the first bow stoke. And it's all over the registry. Il Cannone has it even if it's just about too stiff/bright

 

Recordings from a concert hall or sound enhanced with echos - I can never tell, but from some really bad quality closeup recordings with a phone I can. 

 

This thread is also an attempt to bring Artiom to post some samples and why he likes them.

 

Pleasant, pure and beautiful, why?

www.thestradsound.com/home/miscellaneous/Tias.mp3

 

=> High tech recording (plus it's the real thing)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you shuffled your recordings and ever done real tests of your hypothesis? I skip the part of asking what your hypothesis is. It seems to be pretty obvious that you think that you after putting a CD with an inlay card saying that the recording is done on old instruments that the sound also is old. Very impressive indeed! ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you like and why?

Like many others I too have a distinct; this one has it/that one don't. The old Cremonese sound? can't tell because some modern new violins has it right from the first bow stoke. And it's all over the registry. Il Cannone has it even if it's just about too stiff/bright

 

Recordings from a concert hall or sound enhanced with echos - I can never tell, but from some really bad quality closeup recordings with a phone I can. 

 

This thread is also an attempt to bring Artiom to post some samples and why he likes them.

 

Pleasant, pure and beautiful, why?

www.thestradsound.com/home/miscellaneous/Tias.mp3

 

=> High tech recording (plus it's the real thing)

 

I recognized this violin... It is a Guarneri Plowden, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys could benefit from attending the VSA Oberlin Violin Acoustics Workshop, that is all I'd want to say.

At the very least, it's a good way to avoid wasting time on concepts which have already been tried and tested; get ideas on what looks most promising in the future; refine acoustic measuring methods; compare your instruments with many others during live listening tests, along with getting player feedback; hang out with people who are at the cutting edge of violin acoustic research, and exchange ideas with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scrutiny at its best. I miss the common breakfasts at Baldwin with Fan Tao giving lectures for free on any subject imagniable. He was not the only one. 

And I miss walking through the workshop looking at the violin makers and researchers work and talk. I also miss the bow makers extraordinarily creative meeting minutes on a table. Dinners with important persons and collegues in that community. Probably the best place you can go as a maker, researcher or student. Oberlin, Ohio. The Music conservatory. By the way, the aluminium company founder, Hall, used to live next to the Baldwin dorm and the Concert hall at the conservatory. (I have for a very short time been working on Hall-Heroult cell techology at Hydro Aluminium in Årdal Norway) I like the Karp pond there at the conservatory bouilding. It is drawn by a japanese architect. I do not know his name, but he is famous.

 

Many of the very best conversations I have ever had with people have taken place there. Jeff Robinson spent two hours one evening talking about his teaching and making, and on moisture in string instruments. He tought me to do modal analysis using Stoppanis software. I just regret that I haven't been more helpful in participating in teaching there. His ideas for objects to measure are genial. He presented a modal analysis done partly by me where I probably had tapped the wrong point, he presented it as if it was true. Was it due to the experiment or to a fault? We were tired while tapping there.. He gave a good insight into what happens to a violin if you wet the neck heel. You can literally see the fingerboard drop. 

 

I have also seen Gregg Alf open a del Gesu. It took a day plus with goggles, alcohol and a couple or three specaially shaped knives - and a clean shop floor. He was the last one out of the workshop that night. I do not know if he ever straightened his back, must have. But he was very focussed, but not without telling jokes or conversating.

 

I plan to go to the contest in november, just to see and catch up. A good time to escape Norway and get some fresh air! :-) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was Perlman playing his Soil, probably.

 

What can I say... great clarity, "Cremonese buzz", great articulation, everything is clear in fast passages, I can continue and continue.

 

 

I don't want to comment the playing itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was Perlman playing his Soil, probably.

 

 

 

It could be the Soil but there is a nasty zzzzzzzz throughout. :)  He's pushing it past the comfort zone and I think that mp3 is low bit rate too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be the Soil but there is a nasty zzzzzzzz throughout. :)  He's pushing it past the comfort zone and I think that mp3 is low bit rate too.

 

I think he uses a viola bow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you serious ?????  :blink:   He used to be a bit of a nightmare for Conductors and Rec. Engineers. Small tone.

 

For the rinsing of the ears :

 

 

Going back to the subject of the topic.

 

What you can hear on Kavakos recording, that pleases, is the dry, transparent, focused, articulated sound, the violin plays and it speaks as a very good orator. I can continue and continue. And yes, you can hear in even on poor compressed YT recordings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peter, if you do not listen, you will never succeed!

Yes I agree, you have to listen a lot to understand and succeed. Albums and Youtube recordings are not suficcient. Where I live there is only a couple of times a year concertoes where world class soloists perform. I have visited Sibelius Academy but not too often. There is not enough time either. So daily listening to YT recordings is the best I can do at the moment and play and make violins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like both recordings (Perlman and Kavakos) Kavakos Strad does not speak and pop the same way as the Soil., but it's really lovely.

Playing style is a matter of taste, we can't convince one another there. Perlman is my prefered soloist. I like his rythm in the above recording

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like both recordings (Perlman and Kavakos) Kavakos Strad does not speak and pop the same way as the Soil., but it's really lovely.

 

My impression is that those differences (which I hear, too) are mostly (if not totally) the result of the recording, not the instrument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the recordings are so different that even if the same violin was used one could have different opinion on the sound. There was a recording of Perlman/Soil playing Beethoven and you could not recognize the Soil because it was so mellow. Another big problem is that new recordings are really high tech and the sound is altered to please our ears (for example the first post of Plowden). There is also a really beautiful recording of Kavakos playing Sibelius, but it's a new recording with modern HiFi sound.

I'm in the middle of midsummer celebration, but if this thread goes on I will post some observations later

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the recordings are so different that even if the same violin was used one could have different opinion on the sound. There was a recording of Perlman/Soil playing Beethoven and you could not recognize the Soil because it was so mellow. Another big problem is that new recordings are really high tech and the sound is altered to please our ears (for example the first post of Plowden). There is also a really beautiful recording of Kavakos playing Sibelius, but it's a new recording with modern HiFi sound.

Yup, even a low-to-medium-experience recording/editing person (like me), can make a recorded violin sound almost any way they want it to sound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Music recording should be about the music, not preserving anything....and trying to make the player sound as good as we can make him....
Of course you could try in a recording to emulate as close you can the sound of a certain instrument through a certain amplifier and set of speakers...but as soon as you change the speakers, sound like a different instrument...And the vision must persist through mixing, which is when things really change.

But, yes, Jimmy Hendrix guitar sounds like a stratocaster, and Brian May's sound like the one his dad made or the new copy...

You can not make chicken sandwich with turkey...but with compressors, expanders, freq dependent compressors, limiters, all kinds of eq, solid state, with or without capacitors, tube...you can drive the preamp very high to get more harmonics, auto tune....and so on....a lot can be done

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, even a low-to-medium-experience recording/editing person (like me), can make a recorded violin sound almost any way they want it to sound.

 

Well, if someone posts the recording for others to judge the sound of the instrument, he or she does not have to do anything to modify the sound in order to make it seem better. I usually only use the normalization of signal level. It also makes sense to make a highest resolution of your recording equipment and post the raw files without any compression. My own violins sound on recordings quite close to what they sound in reality. It makes no sense to enhance the quality of recordings in order to make an illusion that the violin sounds better that it is. Unless you sell a violin to an idiot who makes a decision based on recording only, everyone who comes to you to try a violin in reality shall figure out that you just tried to fool him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, even a low-to-medium-experience recording/editing person (like me), can make a recorded violin sound almost any way they want it to sound.

 

David agrees with me I'm happy  :)

 

Hoping to stay on objectives in this thread, I will continue with a first observation that can be found from recordings.

 

The violin can be seen as a large spring where the soundbox with its plate's internal relative weight and stiffness gives certain properties to the the playing. 

 

Some Strads and DGs have similarities that can be deciphered from playing/recordings(only from "bad" non altered). It is a certain steadiness/firmness and "bam" when a tightened bow attack the strings (not only on E string). At least The Soil, Sancy and Il Cannone has this very distinctly. I feel that this attribute can also be recognized in resistance when pushing the strings to the fingerboard on violins that has this attribute.

 

Not much time for posting examples at the moment but maybe this thread will develop in a good way for continuance.

 

ps

Artiom, I might post something about your recordings, not necessarily only praise ;)

I really would like to have such a player to work with though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.