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Can you help me about Joseph Dall'aglio ?


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Hello, My violin is Joseph Dall'agio Fecit in Mantua Anno 1828. It doesn't have A certificate so I am not sure if it is original. What do you do think about this violin? Is it really made in 1828? Is it original? The luthier is selling 18.000 euro but Joseph Dall'agio's other certified violins are 20.000-30.000 euro on the internet. I will be happy if you can help.

 

 

 

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Thank you very much but I took this violin to try, and I have to report this week if I am going to buy it or not. I am studying in Turkey and there aren't any experts here. At some place, it is "Dalagio" and "Dall'agio" at another... I see there is Joseph Dall'agio and Guiseppe Dall'agio, but I don't know if they are the same person. Do you know them? There are photos of the violin in this link, can you help?

cleardot.gif

 

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/103590765253074104768/album/6293499900287784609

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Hello, My violin is Joseph Dall'agio Fecit in Mantua Anno 1828. It doesn't have A certificate so I am not sure if it is original. What do you do think about this violin? Is it really made in 1828? Is it original? The luthier is selling 18.000 euro but Joseph Dall'agio's other certified violins are 20.000-30.000 euro on the internet. I will be happy if you can help.

 

How does it sound ? Will you spend for it 18k for the sound only ?

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I wouldn't conclude anything definite from photos like this, but what I can see does look like a Mantua school fiddle and quite possibly a Dallaglio. See if the seller is willing to have a dendro test by Peter Ratcliffe or someone similar. Negotiate if he would be willing at least to send photos to someone like Eric Blot or Dimitry Gindin. It would be in his interest to do so. An authentic Dallaglio with papers in good condition would be worth more than 30000€ in a shop, but an uncertified italian looking violin at 18000€ is not necessarily over-priced, if it is in good codtition and sounds good. 

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There are a lot of good violins in the world. If you are going to spend that much money on a violin then buy it from a reputable dealer who will give you a certificate of authenticity and stand behind it. If you really are in love with this one ask the seller how much more it will be with a cert and if he cant get one then walk away.

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A lot of nice old ladies think they have an Amati - they might even have a credible certificate from 50 years ago. That doesn't mean they have an Amati. 

 

If you are sure enough that a violin is an Amati, then you're a dealer ...!

 

I know there's plenty of reason to be cynical, but the fact is that the only argument for buying a valuable old violin is that it's a valuable old violin. If sound is the issue then there are plenty of inexpensive options, old and new.

 

The value of a valuable old violin is determined by current expertise. Without that expertise you have nothing, and if you want the value, you have to pay for the expertise at some point. That costs a big whack ... 

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Hello, My violin is Joseph Dall'agio Fecit in Mantua Anno 1828. It doesn't have A certificate so I am not sure if it is original. What do you do think about this violin? Is it really made in 1828? Is it original? The luthier is selling 18.000 euro but Joseph Dall'agio's other certified violins are 20.000-30.000 euro on the internet. I will be happy if you can help.

 

Maybe you can take some more and better quality photos. Straight on the instrument. I could be very wrong but it does not look that old to me.

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I know there's plenty of reason to be cynical, but the fact is that the only argument for buying a valuable old violin is that it's a valuable old violin. If sound is the issue then there are plenty of inexpensive options, old and new.

 

 

 

 

I've never seen "plenty inexpensive options" in Strad league tone. And for a while, I DID look for them. :)

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Why should the nice old lady with the Amati not get a fair retail price for her Amati?

 

The very fact that Ben talks about a "nice" and "old" lady suggests that the deal will not be favourable to her.  :blink:

 

"Strad league tone" - who mentioned that? Even if a violin sounds like a Strad it still isn't a Strad, and the reason why a Strad is worth what it is ..... because it's a Strad.

 

Better get a certificate!

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Why should the nice old lady with the Amati not get a fair retail price for her Amati?

 

The very fact that Ben talks about a "nice" and "old" lady suggests that the deal will not be favourable to her.  :blink:

 

"Strad league tone" - who mentioned that? Even if a violin sounds like a Strad it still isn't a Strad, and the reason why a Strad is worth what it is ..... because it's a Strad.

 

Better get a certificate!

 

The first question would be what's "old" and what's "nice". She might not be that old and she might be very nice. Happens. :)

On the second one, that'd be yourself. You didn't qualify the tone class and I felt warranted to consider everything. :)

As to the certificate, you are absolutely right there. Not that I understand what a certificate really is and what recourse against the estate of the signatory it confers a few decades down the line.

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The first question would be what's "old" and what's "nice". She might not be that old and she might be very nice. Happens. :)

On the second one, that'd be yourself. You didn't qualify the tone class and I felt warranted to consider everything. :)

As to the certificate, you are absolutely right there. Not that I understand what a certificate really is and what recourse against the estate of the signatory it confers a few decades down the line.

1. Yes - but it's still good to resist the temptation to get a steal. That's what auctions are for ...

 

2. We seemed to be discussing anything between a presumed dall'Aglio and an Amati, which I suppose is just about everything. Conceded.

 

3. Interesting point but possibly a different thread. The purpose of the certificate is to give the violin a widely accepted attribution in a notoriously difficult field. It's not a legal document as such, and its purpose is to inspire confidence in a buyer rather than offer a legal guarantee. Generally this is also a vote of confidence for the writer of the certificate and their place in the field of expertise. Anyone can take a punt on a violin which they think is a bargain, but if it's not saleable at a later date then it wasn't a bargain. That's also what auctions are for ...  :D

 

With regard to sound, I think there's a more general point to be made, which is that it isn't the sound which costs the money. Yes, the great Classical violins cost a lot of money, but that doesn't mean one should be persuaded to invest a lot in a great sound if there isn't also a viable attribution. Vide the OP violin. 

 

I happen to agree with Michael that it looks pretty nice and might be good for 18k Euros without and paperwork if it sounds really good, but it might not be possible to sell it again. It's much easier to sell an average sounding Italian violin for 18K than a great sounding anonymous violin. For one thing, it's easier to reach a consensus on the idea that a violin's Italian than on the idea that it sounds good ...

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1. Yes - but it's still good to resist the temptation to get a steal. That's what auctions are for ...

 

2. We seemed to be discussing anything between a presumed dall'Aglio and an Amati, which I suppose is just about everything. Conceded.

 

3. Interesting point but possibly a different thread. The purpose of the certificate is to give the violin a widely accepted attribution in a notoriously difficult field. It's not a legal document as such, and its purpose is to inspire confidence in a buyer rather than offer a legal guarantee. Generally this is also a vote of confidence for the writer of the certificate and their place in the field of expertise. Anyone can take a punt on a violin which they think is a bargain, but if it's not saleable at a later date then it wasn't a bargain. That's also what auctions are for ...  :D

 

With regard to sound, I think there's a more general point to be made, which is that it isn't the sound which costs the money. Yes, the great Classical violins cost a lot of money, but that doesn't mean one should be persuaded to invest a lot in a great sound if there isn't also a viable attribution. Vide the OP violin. 

 

I happen to agree with Michael that it looks pretty nice and might be good for 18k Euros without and paperwork if it sounds really good, but it might not be possible to sell it again. It's much easier to sell an average sounding Italian violin for 18K than a great sounding anonymous violin. For one thing, it's easier to reach a consensus on the idea that a violin's Italian than on the idea that it sounds good ...

 

An exceptionally nice post, Martin. Super !

 

I think a discussion about "certificates" might be nice. I don't understand what they really mean or if they have any legal bearing but then I never payed any attention to anything but sound. I suppose ( rather speculate ) that a lot of buyers nowadays have more concern about their investment. One day, you might wish to give us a few pointers.

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Back to the OP question, if allowed:

The only evidence that the violin is Dall'aglio by now is a label, and the first rule that was established here and anywhere else in the violin business since generations is. that the label is the last thing to ask about an instruments origin, especially if it's an obviously photocopied and recently with a fresh pen dated worthless paper like here.

With all respects to Michael, by this few photos (and even if there were more and better), and just because it looks similar to a Mantua violin you  can't ever be sure that it isn't anything else, or a skilled manipulated and composed copy for instance.

The answer to the question can't be given here, only if you take it to a respected expert in the realm of italian violins. If the seller doesn't agree on this, I won't buy for such a sum. That's all.

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Well most importantly, with an original dell'aglio, upon inhaling the air from an f-hole, you should detect a strong smell of garlic. No original if you don't. It is also one of the reasons why These violins are not as highly regarded as they should be.

 

His neighbour Antonio Dell'olio sold violins that where so slippery from non dring olive oil varnish that they kept falling out of the Players Hands.

 

As the Thing with violins ddn't work so well, the two opened a Restaurant particularly known for Pasta con aglio e olio.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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As the Thing with violins ddn't work so well, the two opened a Restaurant particularly known for Pasta con aglio e olio.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think you have the facts slightly wrong. I do wish people would keep up to date with current research.

According to Rosengard, the restaurant was actually in the ownership of Gaetano Pasta. Dall'aglio and Dall'olio were engaged purely in the preparation of aioli - this is borne out by the guild membership records, since sauce makers belonged to a different guild from restaurateurs, and engaged in the former on pain of banishment.

Dall'aglio and Dall'olio have been credited with formulating the aioli recipe themselves, purely on the grounds that there is no mention of it in the literature prior to their collaboration. But in all likelihood the ingredients were widely available and in common usage before this time.

Pasta was the real innovator, and you do him a dis-service.

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