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~ Ben Conover

Aniline dyes ?

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Aniline dyes have over 100 years of use showing that they are fugitive and should be avoided.

 

There are modern alternatives, like Transtint, that are completely transparent and lightfast.

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A long time ago I got some oil-soluble aniline dyes.

Put the straight dye on wood samples... strong, but good.

Put the samples in the sun for a few days... no fading

Put the dye into oil varnish... looked good

Put varnish on a fiddle... looked good

Varnish dried... poof, no color whatsoever.

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By solving Transtint in Acetone, I've been able to add it to oil varnish successfully. I've also tried a brand of leather dye that seems to mix with the varnish I'm using as well.

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Aniline dyes??!! Oh, the HORROR!

As if madder is a permanent color. :rolleyes:

Madder contains alizarin, and the fugitive purpurin. Synthetic alizarin contains alizarin. The modern synthetic lakes are fairly lightfast.

Aniline colors... The main problem is if you use UV light to cure your varnish. But we're really talking azo, not aniline, right? Pretty good light fastness.

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My experience agrees with Don's, the lightfastness depends on the medium. I've tested some dyes that were very lightfast in spirit and then terrible in oil.

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Hi,

Anyone got ideas / experience re-using aniline dyes with oil varnish ?

- Or are they better suited to spirit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniline

Just thinking back to a violin by Fairfax that I saw ages ago, he'd used aniline dyes

and the results were striking. Would take the grind out of grinding / growing madder.

Cheers.

Hi Ben,

I used and still use aniline dyes in oil varnishes. I use a water bath to warm the varnish to about

70C. The dye mixes with varnish. I used the aniline dyes from Syney Evans and still use various powder dyes.

All colouring agents mix better if the warnish is warm. 

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My experience agrees with Don's, the lightfastness depends on the medium. I've tested some dyes that were very lightfast in spirit and then terrible in oil.

That's been my experience as well. Always need to to test it in the medium you will use.

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I once looked into synthetic dyes,  and there are MILLIONS of them in different classes,  Azo, Diazo, and on and on.   The first synthetic dye came from Aniline,  (colored "mauve" and derived by a guy named Wm. H. Perkin)  but "aniline" is a misnomer because of so many that are not related to aniline.  They have all different properties.  I have found that the ones packaged in wood-working stores have been sorted and chosen for good light-fastness.  No need to even ask what they are,  they may be mixes or straight compounds.  One could not figure out what they are anyway,

 

The German chemical industry derives from the early dye manufacturing.  These folks gave the world the gases used in the Holocaust,  and they are still in business.

 

To put a tag on any dye is likely to be useless and of no help.  (I wish everyone would abandon the misnomer "aniline dye.") 

 

And furthermore,  we all know that natural dyes degrade,  because in the autumn,  all the colors go away.  Natural vegetable dyes are almost always mordanted with alum,  iron, or perhaps tin.

 

So don't waste time worrying about dyes.  Just buy them at a woodworking outlet of some kind.  You can get alcohol or water soluable types.  Elsewhere, one can find oil-soluable ones which are notoriously fugitive.  I use glazes and don't have to put color in oil varnish other than the natural color already there.

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'The German chemical industry derives from the early dye manufacturing.  These folks gave the world the gases used in the Holocaust,  and they are still in business. ' 
~ True, and the firm who worked with aniline stuff became BASF who along with Nestle and others are at the brink 
of controlling the trade deals called TTIP....so definitely better use madder root. 

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'The German chemical industry derives from the early dye manufacturing.  These folks gave the world the gases used in the Holocaust,  and they are still in business. ' 

~ True, and the firm who worked with aniline stuff became BASF who along with Nestle and others are at the brink 

of controlling the trade deals called TTIP....so definitely better use madder root. 

 

 

Sad to have to say 'Business is Bizzness!'

 

In WWI Canada had most of the world's valuable Nickel that was controlled by an American company that sold it to Germany for making steel weapons.

Germans then used it on Canadians and later Americans .... I guess that is fair trade!

 

Great Britain calculated before WWI how much Nitrates Germany had for explosives, and realized that WWI would only last 1 year before Germany would run out.

Most of the Nitrates were from Nature in those days, and bird droppings was a huge source, from South America, so controlling the High Seas would give Britain the Victory.

 

Rule Britannia!

 

Then the Germans Haber and Bosch developed the "Haber Bosch Process" which is a way of fixing nitrogen to make explosives, using a chemical process based on "Le Chatelier's principle", discovered by a Frenchman to blow up Frenchmen.

Seems all a bit unfair, and those Nasty Germans get all the blame!

 

But just a second, what is this????

 

"Due to its dramatic impact on the human ability to grow food, the Haber process served as the "detonator of the population explosion", enabling the global population to increase from 1.6 billion in 1900 to today's 7 billion. Nearly 80% of the nitrogen found in human tissues originated from the Haber-Bosch process." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

 

Now this is a totally different kind of explosion!   A Life Explosion! 

We had better give the Germans credit for this since we want our books to balance.

 

Now I have not looked, but I think it might be safe to say, and on "Holocaust Remembrance Day", that BASF has done some good too.

 

Remembrance Day Calendar

  2016   Thursday, May 5

    2017   Monday, April 24

    2018   Thursday, April 12

    2019   Thursday, May 2

    2020   Tuesday, April 21

    2021   Thursday, April 8

    2022   Thursday, April 28 

    2023   Tuesday, April 18

    2024   Monday, May 6

    2025   Thursday, April 24

    2026   Tuesday, April 14 

    2027   Tuesday, May 4

    2028   Monday, April 24

    2029   Thursday, April 12

    2030   Tuesday, April 30

 

So today we have Canadian Jews that own shares in American Mining companies that owe 80% of the Nitrogen in their bodies from eating food with fertilizers from 2 Germans who own shares in BASF, and hopefully *all* are remembering this terrible period of Insanity, when Hatred Ruled the day, and People, a great number of, where killed!

 

Sad to have to say those days are close at hand again ...

Not only does History repeat itself, but each time it does, it does it in a bigger and bigger fashion.... :-(

 

The problem is not a 'head problem' it is a 'Heart Problem'.

 

Lest We Forget! 

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Curious if anyone one used analine dye and the UV light treatment ti dry varnish contributed to the fugitive aspect. In other words did the intense use to concentrated UV  speed up the degeneration of the tint? 

 

Tinctures and dyes are tricky, I've made tinctures wood chips in alcohol, some are very light fast and others fugitive...you have to put them in the window for weeks a moths a watch them with a part covered to block out sun. I just made one with Honduran rosewood chips that ended up being a light brown amber color a so far no fading. Although I did burn in the test piece ever so slightly. 

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"Due to its dramatic impact on the human ability to grow food, the Haber process served as the "detonator of the population explosion", enabling the global population to increase from 1.6 billion in 1900 to today's 7 billion. Nearly 80% of the nitrogen found in human tissues originated from the Haber-Bosch process." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
 
I agree that the overpoplation,  depletion of natural resouces, agricultural land, extinctions, and water shortages are leading us to a grim fate.  But who of you wishes to get off the planet?
 
But maybe if you all died younger?  Medical advances seem to work against the population problem.  I estimate that the doubling time for the exponential rise of the population is much less than 50 years.  Some say it will level out at 10 billion.  I have my doubts.  It will level out when starvation and "military" rates match birth rates.  Natural selection will certainly remain valid,  but nobody ever said that Nature was KIND.

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"Due to its dramatic impact on the human ability to grow food, the Haber process served as the "detonator of the population explosion", enabling the global population to increase from 1.6 billion in 1900 to today's 7 billion. Nearly 80% of the nitrogen found in human tissues originated from the Haber-Bosch process." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
 
I agree that the overpoplation,  depletion of natural resouces, agricultural land, extinctions, and water shortages are leading us to a grim fate.  But who of you wishes to get off the planet?
 
But maybe if you all died younger?  Medical advances seem to work against the population problem.  I estimate that the doubling time for the exponential rise of the population is much less than 50 years.  Some say it will level out at 10 billion.  I have my doubts.  It will level out when starvation and "military" rates match birth rates.  Natural selection will certainly remain valid,  but nobody ever said that Nature was KIND.

 

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard "overpopulation" as a problem ....

Seriously this is one of those statements that has been made time and time again....

When the world population hit 1 billion for the first time everybody said the same thing....

Now we produce enough food today in the world, according to the U.N. to feed everybody 2.5 times ....

And yet we are still not even close to using all of the arable land available ...

 

So why are people starving?  

Because one group of people want to starve another group of people ....

Somalia is a good case in point, with U.N. food convoys being stopped to use starvation as a weapon.

The U.S. military failed to get the food through ....

 

How many times have people tried in History to solve Poverty by throwing money at it?

Yet it has never worked, so why?

Yet we still try the same thing time and time again ....

 

Why the very descendants of those Holocaust survivors are making the desert bloom in Israel and sharing the technology they developed freely.

 

 

The grim fate mankind is heading for has nothing to do with resources....

It is not a 'head problem', it is a 'Heart Problem' that plagues mankind.

 

The Good News is "The Times they are a changin"

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If I had a nickel for everytime I heard "overpopulation" as a problem ....

Seriously this is one of those statements that has been made time and time again....

When the world population hit 1 billion for the first time everybody said the same thing....

Now we produce enough food today in the world, according to the U.N. to feed everybody 2.5 times ....

And yet we are still not even close to using all of the arable land available ...

 

So why are people starving?  

Because one group of people want to starve another group of people ....

Somalia is a good case in point, with U.N. food convoys being stopped to use starvation as a weapon.

The U.S. military failed to get the food through ....

 

How many times have people tried in History to solve Poverty by throwing money at it?

Yet it has never worked, so why?

Yet we still try the same thing time and time again ....

 

Why the very descendants of those Holocaust survivors are making the desert bloom in Israel and sharing the technology they developed freely.

 

 

The grim fate mankind is heading for has nothing to do with resources....

It is not a 'head problem', it is a 'Heart Problem' that plagues mankind.

 

The Good News is "The Times they are a changin"

You can believe that if you wish.  Habitat for wild animals is shrinking rapidly.   What used to be connected areas of wilderness are now interrupted by cultivated land and cities.   (I watch a lot of nature shows.  There are probably less than 2500 tigers in the wild,  less than in captivity.)  Farmers don't like tigers............  Arable land is what the animals live in before it is cut down.  Sure,  we could have industrial food plants with water pumped in etc.  And big fish ponds.   But water too is getting quite scarce.  The Himalayan glaciers are the source of much of India and China's water,  but they are shrinking by the year.  The amazon river basin is not getting any better.   The decisions are made by small and separated economic influences.  There is no world plan for any of these problems.  They cannot even agree on a carbon-emissions program.

 

I don't expect the "heart" is going to do a damned thing to help this out.  Do the Israelies have enough water to let Palestine bloom also?

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I was listening to a lecture by E.O. Wilson the biologist His summation was the over population was not the issue the health of the oceans was more important.

 

Guess the aniline thread died. 

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E.O. Wilson was one of my graduate school mentor's advisors. Does that make him my grand advisor? Anyway, it would be nice to get back on track and talk about dyes. I'll be happy to talk about ecosystems over beer with anyone I meet up with.

-Jim

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E.O. Wilson was one of my graduate school mentor's advisors. Does that make him my grand advisor? Anyway, it would be nice to get back on track and talk about dyes. I'll be happy to talk about ecosystems over beer with anyone I meet up with.

-Jim

There are not that many common ones that are suitable.  Buy one of everything and start experiments.

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exposure to aniline dyes is a risk factor for bladder cancer.

 

rq

By which exposure route (dermal, contact, ingestion, inhalation)?  Risk factors vary by exposure route and of course dose (concentration/body weight) x frequency of exposure.  Everything is toxic depending on the dose.  If someone is seriously interested in knowing if a substance they are frequently exposed to, i.e. daily workplace exposure, you can PM me and I may be able to help you determine if your exposure is likely to put you at risk.  Risks also do not account for mixtures (multiple exposures) or individual susceptibilities.

 

-Jim    

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