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The model and f holes - vienna, tyrol, mittenwald or venice?


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Thank you- I have seen someTyrolean names indeed- yet very few of that work can be seenanywhere.

The question here was about the model of the violin- not its provenance which I doubt can be detected. It seems it is always fashionable to play cinics rather than attrmpt providing any readoned answers.

I have read a lot seen a lot of materials and would like to confront with someone who could provide some knowledgable opinion- on the rather small f holes and model. Thank you

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Thank you- I have seen someTyrolean names indeed- yet very few of that work can be seenanywhere.

The question here was about the model of the violin- not its provenance which I doubt can be detected. It seems it is always fashionable to play cinics rather than attrmpt providing any readoned answers.

I have read a lot seen a lot of materials and would like to confront with someone who could provide some knowledgable opinion- on the rather small f holes and model. Thank you

 

Sorry for the short answer, but I tried to include everything you're asking for in this shortness, just to save time.

 

The origin of the violin can be detected easily, it's Saxony from the early 19th century, what correlates with the dendro data you told.

 

The model and ffs, as far as not blurred by the obvious overworking and revarnishing, is "Saxon", too, and very different from all the makers you mentioned. Albeit stressing fantasy might produce a lot of analogies, there's nothing but this.

 

After reading and searching for "Tyrol" in this forum, one should hear loud alarm bells ringing, if a violin is announced as Fine Tyrolean. There were, as you wrote, only a very few makers there, and usually Tyrol is used as a synonym for "We've got no clue where it was made, but let's give baby a name".

 

At least, this is an opinion, if knowledgeable, I don't know.

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Hello, 

Thank you- that is a very precise and indeed knowledgable indication. Does it looks like a Stainer model?  

The instrument is hard to photograph and the varnish might indeed be damaged (changed). It looks and sounds fairly better in real life than how it looks in the photos. It has been restored well by now and will be used for playing and not for speculating. It has a transition scroll which is nailed to it and it was commented by some luthiers as Austrian looking. The description on the website saying Tyrol might be not fully wrong- as the instrument has been acquired in Venice and had been there for quite a bit, and Tyrol, Austria is closer than Saxony. It definetely seems not to be Bohemian- which is another widely used term for everything that cannot be identified. A nice day to everyone

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Just another minute to correct some of the usual misconceptions you're repeating.

 

The description as Tyrol is completely wrong, because it definitely wasn't made in the geographic defined region called so. Just that it was sold in Venice tells absolutely nothing about it's origin. since the time of train transportation, just in the early 19th, saxon violins were exported in the whole wide world, to every far away oversea country, and Venice is some railway hours away from Markneukirchen only.. You won't say, if it was sold in California, that it was probably made in Mexico, because it's closer, would you?

The other thing is, that "Bohemia" usually means Schönbach, which is cross border from Markneukirchen, and many Markneukirchen violins where produced there. So there's not really a difference between Saxony and Bohemia in this period.

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Great, Vienna/Austria was the first indication last time when I asked for an opinion on this forum - from a rather respected member. The dendro also said that the wood comes from the alps- Swiss, Italian or Austrian perhaps. There are some good quality photos on the website of Mittenwald violin making museum and they look rather similar. Perhaps more photos might give a better idea. I do not know any particular makers from Saxony - yet it is not a workshop violin. Perhaps it is made by a minor maker. In any case - apart the origins - the model does not look fully Stainer, but a sort of a mix of influences

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This subject gets pretty boring, with people who don't know where Tirol is, calling violins from Saxon, Mittenwald, Austria generally and Füssen „Tyrolean“, although there are very few actual Tirolean makers. Actually, once you have accounted for Stainer, a couple in Innsbruck, those in Vils, and those in Bozen, you are just about finished. We have had this topic x times before, one example:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327044-saxon-vs-tyrolean-whats-the-difference/?p=560148

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http://www.bongartz-auctions.com/images/highlights/44_big.jpg this looks fairly similar- if you'd see the violin live

One thing you mustn't confuse is, that Mittenwald and Füssen are not in Tyrol, and that makers from there working short or long in Innsbruck usually shouldn't be claimed as natural tyrolean makers (what the linked essay does permanently).

The Fichtl from Bongartz is in my eyes very different from your violin, just take a look at the corners (long and thin at yours, short there) or the C-bouts. That's what I meant with fantasy analogies. B)

 

I see Jacob replied, too.

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Reg. Dendro, if it says definitely alpine wood, I would ask "the usual" questions for construction - is it made with a one piece lower rib (possibly cut later), assymetrical corner blocks with the linings inserted, what would indicate an inner mould construction from Mittenwald or Vienna? Is the scroll (if original) fluted till the beginning of the pegbox (front view)?

If you write "nailed", do you mean the scroll is attached (grafted) to a new neck, or is the neck/body attachment original? One piece neck/block construction (through neck) or is the neck nailed to a separate upper block?

Nonetheless, I can hardly associate such low ribs and sharp corners with one of those places

Another possible austrian origin could be the Salzkammergut, where they worked similar to the Saxon/Bohemian style.

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Ok, dear experts. I did not wanted to tackle the Tirol issue at all. Sure it is not so interesting and the link I published before at least gave a list of names. 

 

I was curious about the opinion on the model and f holes - as that could be about it what could be said more on this violin. 

 

All seem to agree that it indeed speaks German- whether with Austrian, Bavarian or other accents might be also a secondary issue. Here are more photos https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k2k5dvdaveaz3b9/AACRUJACGBr1IJ7SGiTLvwqia?dl=0

 

Lighting and other conditions influence a lot - ph 34,35,36 are after restoration. 

 

My friend and colleague Francesco Trevisin who kindly restored this instrument for my daughter had indicated right the age 1800 before dendro and said of the germanic origin, saying that even with all his extensive experience at David Segal violins in NY for 3 years, before getting back to Venice - he said honestly that he doubts a maker could be pinned down and that perhaps only an expert of Germanic Austrian instruments (who has saw a lot of instruments of that specific school) could attempt to do that- but also that can be only a guess. Therefore once someone could tell me what kind of model it looks like this would be enough information one could possibly gather, once the age has been certified 

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The Black and white photos in the book Austrian and German Violin Makers that seemed more alike - due to strange assymetric shape of the instrument- and I am talking about the shape - not the maker as you cannot really understand a lot from the grainy B/W photos, apart similar f holes and model. 

 

These seem fairly similar: 

 FICHTL, Magnus Anton Born 1748 Füssen, died 1792 Krems Germany, Jakob Petz in Vienna, Michael Ignaz Stadlmann, Vienna, Matthias Thir, Vienna and also some of the photos of several violins by Jacobus Horil resemble the model.

 

Greetings

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This subject gets pretty boring, with people who don't know where Tirol is, calling violins from Saxon, Mittenwald, Austria generally and Füssen „Tyrolean“, although there are very few actual Tirolean makers. Actually, once you have accounted for Stainer, a couple in Innsbruck, those in Vils, and those in Bozen, you are just about finished. We have had this topic x times before, one example:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327044-saxon-vs-tyrolean-whats-the-difference/?p=560148

What would be interesting to discuss is what was the relationship of the makers from Bolzano, Viels; Fussen with Venice- and Italy. From what I have read many of those instruments were sold in Venetian workshops and the local Venetians preferred cheaper instruments coming from the nearby countries rather than the locally made more expensive instruments. There was indeed also a bit less happy exchange later on. Then the whole school of Tecchler, Horil  and link between Rome and Vienna could be studied more, or perhaps I just would need to find the right books

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Reg. Dendro, if it says definitely alpine wood, I would ask "the usual" questions for construction - is it made with a one piece lower rib (possibly cut later), assymetrical corner blocks with the linings inserted, what would indicate an inner mould construction from Mittenwald or Vienna? Is the scroll (if original) fluted till the beginning of the pegbox (front view)?

If you write "nailed", do you mean the scroll is attached (grafted) to a new neck, or is the neck/body attachment original? One piece neck/block construction (through neck) or is the neck nailed to a separate upper block?

Nonetheless, I can hardly associate such low ribs and sharp corners with one of those places

Another possible austrian origin could be the Salzkammergut, where they worked similar to the Saxon/Bohemian style.

I have added some more images just in case

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This subject gets pretty boring, with people who don't know where Tirol is, calling violins from Saxon, Mittenwald, Austria generally and Füssen „Tyrolean“, although there are very few actual Tirolean makers. Actually, once you have accounted for Stainer, a couple in Innsbruck, those in Vils, and those in Bozen, you are just about finished. We have had this topic x times before, one example:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327044-saxon-vs-tyrolean-whats-the-difference/?p=560148

http://www.musikland-tirol.at/english/musikgeschichten/musikintirol/instrumentenbau/violin-making.html

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Thanks for the photos - and I have to admit, that it looks much more interesting at your pictures than from the OP link. Not only the varnish, edges and purfling, even the proportions and ribs appear to be from a different violin.

That's definitely not from Saxony, and I aggree now with everything what your luthier told you. Just wondering how people are managing to make photos of a fine instrument looking like something nasty.

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I made the photos - and perhaps just did too much of a photoshop correction. I am helping my luthier colleague/friend with running his website. So perhaps the images or  the plugin- which makes the zoom in possible are perhaps distorting something. Images are always tricky. So what about the model- could it be made without a mould since it is a bit asymetric? 

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You linked to that tourist brochure already

Re Tirol. For instance, the largest town, Innsbruck: I have lived and worked in Austria since the mid 80's and have seen ONE SINGLE Psenner violin, and a couple of Nobiceks. Otherwise NOTHING.

The amount of rubber-necks blathering on about “Tyrolean Violins” is inversely proportional to the amount of old violins that were actually made in Tirol

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I made the photos - and perhaps just did too much of a photoshop correction. I am helping my luthier colleague/friend with running his website. So perhaps the images or  the plugin- which makes the zoom in possible are perhaps distorting something. Images are always tricky. So what about the model- could it be made without a mould since it is a bit asymetric? 

 

Ok, one more step too heavy - photos are tricky, that's right. Maybe you used too much lens distortion correction, too? The others are fine.

 

Inside mould instruments can be very assymetric - if the ribs were taken off the mould, they can get much distorted.

There were many relatively unknown makers in S-Germany or Austria during this period. I would forget about comparing misleading pictures (and forget about the T-word ;) ) and do as you told, ask some specialists from the region when you are going there.

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