Violadamore Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 My impression has been a little different, putting these books more into the category of masturbatory material. Not that this renders them without value. "A quick one off the wrist". while reading a fanciful old violinmaking tome, can relieve tension and anxiety, resulting in better focus, and increased overall productivity. Now I'm sure that the making market is depressed. You're moonlighting as a speechwriter for one of the presidential campaigns, aren't you?
Violadamore Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf Thanks for posting this valuable evidence in the debate over the decline of professional scholarship.
Marty Kasprzyk Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 Well, it puts part of it in perspective; I think on the surface "free stuff" sounds very appealing and that "free knowledge" also on the surface sounds great, but there are ramifications from such a reality that definitely have a downside. For example from the 60's to the 90's, recording artists were beholden to the record companies that they had "deals"with. I'm sure many at the time were at odds with their record companies and there are many legendary stories about "the band vs the record company" and as "bad" as all that sounds, the world or recording artist's would no get down and beg for those days to come back. when it's time for "recreational" music, all I have to do is go to utube, type in whatever I want, plug my PA in and we're off....the entire world of music at my fingertips for free, I haven't bought any music in years, and frankly I feel quite guilty about it, but similiar gang looting, once one guy does it, and the other rush in, and "everyone else is doing it", theft, for lack of better terms becomes "normal" look at google books, all that information for free, why would you pay for something you can get free? regardless if what lic deals they have, look at what that has done to the resell or used bookstore format. Bookstores are now hipster retro, but like the musicians, once all their hard work and efforts become free, it becomes a disposable item that is fleeting, free, there when one wants it and so, why bother. At this point its not just classical music that is in decline, we are at a point where ALL music is in decline, when everything is free it starts to have no value. I went into a music store the other day to buy a case for a guitar I finished, there was so much to choose from, real fancy stuff, all of it under 1000usd, the mere perception of value has been distorted based on international fascist {corporate} collusion where we get the "china thing" , where pay scale comparisons are so obtuse they can not be compared, where virtual slave labor is used to manufacturer everything we use, including instruments, setting a new mental bench mark in the populations ideal of "what something is worth", so much so on a grand level, that only a few sophisticated Luddites that appreciate and can even fathom what amount of skill and effort it takes for a craftsman to make a violin or guitar, and thus pay accordingly based on regional economic factors, whereas I can go to the music store and buy the dolphin inlay guitar with bear claw spruce, that sounds ok, for 300 bucks, for a craftsman to create a rendition of that instrument, by hand, with that level of detail, negating any tonal requirements, would take at least 2 months of labor, and the craftsman couldn't even purchase the materials for 300 bucks, let alone factor in the labor time....So what we have is a major distortion of reality, people in the west with a currency value of x, property, rental values of y, pay scales of z, sending all manufacturer to the east where people who have a dramatically different x,y,z, producing everything you use for "nothing" compared to "you", shipping it back to "you" where the end result is the massive distortion in the perception of the value of "things" again, money, economics, more importantly, the monetary system, that is dictating our realities. Again, when things that humans produce become "cheap", they become valueless, once something like music becomes cheap,free,and easy, it becomes valueless, when music becomes valueless, you have serious problem, because, as we see, people stop doing it, someone else will do it, and they will do it for free...why bother Well, it puts part of it in perspective; I think on the surface "free stuff" sounds very appealing and that "free knowledge" also on the surface sounds great, but there are ramifications from such a reality that definitely have a downside. For example from the 60's to the 90's, recording artists were beholden to the record companies that they had "deals"with. I'm sure many at the time were at odds with their record companies and there are many legendary stories about "the band vs the record company" and as "bad" as all that sounds, the world or recording artist's would no get down and beg for those days to come back. when it's time for "recreational" music, all I have to do is go to utube, type in whatever I want, plug my PA in and we're off....the entire world of music at my fingertips for free, I haven't bought any music in years, and frankly I feel quite guilty about it, but similiar gang looting, once one guy does it, and the other rush in, and "everyone else is doing it", theft, for lack of better terms becomes "normal" look at google books, all that information for free, why would you pay for something you can get free? regardless if what lic deals they have, look at what that has done to the resell or used bookstore format. Bookstores are now hipster retro, but like the musicians, once all their hard work and efforts become free, it becomes a disposable item that is fleeting, free, there when one wants it and so, why bother. At this point its not just classical music that is in decline, we are at a point where ALL music is in decline, when everything is free it starts to have no value. I went into a music store the other day to buy a case for a guitar I finished, there was so much to choose from, real fancy stuff, all of it under 1000usd, the mere perception of value has been distorted based on international fascist {corporate} collusion where we get the "china thing" , where pay scale comparisons are so obtuse they can not be compared, where virtual slave labor is used to manufacturer everything we use, including instruments, setting a new mental bench mark in the populations ideal of "what something is worth", so much so on a grand level, that only a few sophisticated Luddites that appreciate and can even fathom what amount of skill and effort it takes for a craftsman to make a violin or guitar, and thus pay accordingly based on regional economic factors, whereas I can go to the music store and buy the dolphin inlay guitar with bear claw spruce, that sounds ok, for 300 bucks, for a craftsman to create a rendition of that instrument, by hand, with that level of detail, negating any tonal requirements, would take at least 2 months of labor, and the craftsman couldn't even purchase the materials for 300 bucks, let alone factor in the labor time....So what we have is a major distortion of reality, people in the west with a currency value of x, property, rental values of y, pay scales of z, sending all manufacturer to the east where people who have a dramatically different x,y,z, producing everything you use for "nothing" compared to "you", shipping it back to "you" where the end result is the massive distortion in the perception of the value of "things" again, money, economics, more importantly, the monetary system, that is dictating our realities. Again, when things that humans produce become "cheap", they become valueless, once something like music becomes cheap,free,and easy, it becomes valueless, when music becomes valueless, you have serious problem, because, as we see, people stop doing it, someone else will do it, and they will do it for free...why bother I take it that you don't think a college education should be free.
Violadamore Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I take it that you don't think a college education should be free. Different situation Tuition only gets you the opportunity to attend. The education itself is paid for in the coin of hard mental exercise and the conquest of personal weaknesses and anxieties, which is why a diploma, particularly in a STEM area which can't be skated through, still has a great deal of value. Scholarships and government programs got me in, brights and guts got me through.
Rue Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I take it that you don't think a college education should be free. I don't think a college education should be free. Why should it?
James M. Jones Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 My impression has been a little different, putting these books more into the category of masturbatory material. Not that this renders them without value. "A quick one off the wrist". while reading a fanciful old violinmaking tome, can relieve tension and anxiety, resulting in better focus, and increased overall productivity. such a 15 yr old! ... but .... ya "beat" me to it... .I was going to say something about ...I'll say it anyways ....learning violin making with a book is like learning sex and the kama sutra .... best with a partner. I find books at best a decent guide , but as one top maker( rodger H) put it.. nothing is LEARNED by reading . My original post was about top makers critiquing my work , boiled down to one word , that I frequent while making. other things I have heard ( from world class master makers) and try to practice, are make make make ...... and learn learn learn ,.... there is no magic bullet , one perennial favorite of mine is "POWERS OF OBSERVATION ! " Matt Harvey , master blacksmith .
James M. Jones Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I don't think a college education should be free. Why should it? the theory is based in sound logic....The more you earn the more you learn , nothing is "free" the theory is that by having successful, profiting, industry and stock traders pay for the education of young people, they are insuring that the population as a whole will remain...or regain a /the competitive edge in a world market place . considering the rapidly changing needs of society and the limits imposed by it, it might provide a certain "leg up" that was historically unnecessary to compete.As a whole "we" are better off with an educated populous than with an uneducated one. .
Violadamore Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I don't think a college education should be free. Why should it? Ummmm, I feel we're starting to argue semantics here. We need our gifted well educated, or our civilization will fail. I don't consider any program with difficult prerequisites, such as academically competitive scholarships, or the G.I. Bill, etc., to be "free". You pay for your entry to it, just not with cash. You pay further for your successful exit, as I stated above, so I'm not certain that any serious degree is ever really "free".
Stephen Faulk Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I don't think a college education should be free. Why should it? I agree, although it should not cost an abusive price either. Which is why one of the august and virtuous disingenuous and growing slipperier by the day candidates in the American primaries is a lunatic. And then there are the Republicans..... The US had/has a good system route of Jr, College segue to college that those who could not afford straight into university could take, and you paid your own way by saving up for each semester ahead of time. That is what is fair and needed, not entitlement all over the place. People should be investing in themselves and pay for some of it, just not at 15% interest on ballooned up student loan. And if you work to save up some of tuition the government should match you. But totally free for an able bodied person, nope. There is one pragmatic candidate who is aiming to make that older system function again ....hmmmmm, the rest are either delusional or ....delusional. _________________ One of the dangers of private industry-corporate investment in education is that education becomes burdened with justifying to the benefactors the level of donation they make. This causes conflicts of interest in creating educated citizens in the classic sense they that receive an education that is imbued with both cultural and practical richness. And in addition to the overall conflict of interest, the academic programs designated to conduct research can be pressured to investigate subjects that are of interest only to those who sponsor them. Education is not free, someone or some entity has to pay for it, and the government is always involved in some granting capacity. If a student is given free education provided by combination of taxes and private investments by special interest corporations it means that government tax money is being spent to assist private industry by paying part of the tuition for future corporate workers. It's not a democratic blend of taxes and corporate granting. Taxes in the end get used to enable corporate involvement in education. It is a good argument for making education available to those who can work part time and the state and federal governments can help cover the costs of running schools. Making tuition affordable, but still something one has to work for is another layer of protection against corporate sponsorship of education. Which is dangerous to culture and probably not healthy for industry either. Corporate involvement is good to an extent, but it needs to be balanced and checked. Corporations should contribute to colleges because the wealth they accrue is made possible by being sited in a country with modern education, they need to pay it forward morally, however the oversight needs to be strict. Requiring students earn some of their way is part of oversight, not because the student is paying the bigger share, but because if they have to pay for it they will not be automatically beholden to a corporate standard of education. Paying for at least part of it means the student is better set to have free choice of direction because they can say I earned this education and I will take where I want to take it. College culture should empower the student to individuate, not become a corporate sheep.
Ganymede Piggot Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Posted April 22, 2016 ^Knock it off. Burgess is talking about wood.
jezzupe Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 I take it that you don't think a college education should be free. Well I think information should be free, education implies an institution with educators, staff and materials that need to be paid for. However information about any given subject, compiled into a format that may be used for education, seems like there should be some compensation in there somewhere, if there's an author Tell you what, lets get rid of the private federal reserve system, then we can get rid of that fraudulent debt they have leveled against us, and stop paying them their "profit" in their usury scam called income tax, which is eternal debt slavery....Then we can use the internet and technology to have a true democratic republic where as we can have internet based true democratic votes on our budgets and just what kind of services and just how much in APPORTIONED taxation we want to set aside for all the various social programs we may want, such as "free education" I mean hey, we have free k though high school, why not "higher education"??? I mean of course this may force us to examine what "higher education" really means and what it is for, which is basically prep for an unsustainable consumer based economic system that is quickly being threatened by technology making many careers and jobs obsolete anyway. edit; lets not forget there was a free uc system in California for quite some time, a program that many took advantage of, now kids are hundreds of thousands in debt for basically the same thing that many got for free.....oh they got educated, on how to get screwed in a scam....because, where did the government get the money to lend these kids? thats right, they got it from the federal reserve in the form of a loan during "deficit budget spending formulation time"...and where did the Fed get the money from? that's right they don't have any....because they have been granted the right to just create it...so they just make it up, a private bank, loan it to "government" government loans it to the kids, and now they are all in debt paying the government back the loan, and then the Fed gets there profit back from their "collectors" what a deal!!!!....So now their choices are, eternal debt, run and become a "criminal" or "check out".... what a great place we have here....
Ganymede Piggot Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Posted April 22, 2016 He's trying to tell you about impregnating varnish, you idiot!
jezzupe Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 He's trying to tell you about impregnating varnish, you idiot! you can't impregnate Varnish,.... unless that's your cousins first name, you did hear about the violin maker with the three daughters? Varnish, Rosin and...F hole
Stephen Faulk Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 Jezzie, BM is under the impression this thread is about violinmaking go easy on him.....
Ganymede Piggot Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Posted April 22, 2016 ^F-hole was named in honor of yo mama. I don't care what this thread is about as long as it hits another thousand views before this weekend. Go baby!
Stephen Faulk Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 Jokes about ones mother are never safe to play on a Replicant.
Ben Hebbert Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 the late victorian books on violin making get straight to the point of violin making. My impression has been a little different, putting these books more into the category of masturbatory material. Not that this renders them without value. "A quick one off the wrist". while reading a fanciful old violinmaking tome, can relieve tension and anxiety, resulting in better focus, and increased overall productivity. David, you have a lovely way of putting things... and I don't disagree, at all... However, I think the difference is that in the late Victorian / early 20th century, if you were interested in making instruments as a hobby, the books you could go straight to were all about how to make a violin, however florid and ... well... as you say... By contrast the books (at least those available in England) in the late 20th century, set the bar at making Appalachian Dulcimers, trapezoid fiddles and mostly instruments that utilised carpentry skills, and I think also helped to imply that violin making was 'on another level'. Hence we don't see nearly the same kind of amateur output from this period as the generally not-unsuccessful amateur or semi-professional making of 100 years ago.
Stephen Faulk Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 David, you have a lovely way of putting things... and I don't disagree, at all... However, I think the difference is that in the late Victorian / early 20th century, if you were interested in making instruments as a hobby, the books you could go straight to were all about how to make a violin, however florid and ... well... as you say... By contrast the books (at least those available in England) in the late 20th century, set the bar at making Appalachian Dulcimers, trapezoid fiddles and mostly instruments that utilised carpentry skills, and I think also helped to imply that violin making was 'on another level'. Hence we don't see nearly the same kind of amateur output from this period as the generally not-unsuccessful amateur or semi-professional making of 100 years ago. But did they have varnish? Dulcimers are fascinating. The Smithsonian has a collection, but the history and regional variations are what makes them interesting, not really how to make one. By the time the books in the 1970's 80's were being written on how to build one the models had been mono-cultured into two types of bodies. The dulcimer is interesting because it existed more as a concept which was interpreted differently county by county or clan by clan, than a definite singular model. The sheer number of regional variations are simply a musical instruments buffs pleasure to see. It's not a high art value instrument, it is a folk instrument, however gazing at authentic and true old Appalachian made dulcimers it is one of the most delightful ways to spent time engaging with a hand made culture. It was a culture of making that has a conceptual continuity, but everyone did their own thing with structure; the study of vernacular of structure is super cool in the same way violin vernacular is cool.
David Burgess Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 such a 15 yr old! ... but .... ya "beat" me to it... As a child, I was expected to behave like an adult, so some childhood makeup time is in order. Blame my parents.
Rue Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 Sorry to get back to the 'not so fun' tangent... I think we need a well-educated public. That's what public education is for. That should be funded by tax-payers and everyone should attend. I have noticed, rather sadly, since I've been paying attention to these things: 1. A 3 or 4 year degree used to get you a good job. (Er, with the exception of a Philosophy degree...lol...) 2. Then you needed a Master's degree to get that same good job. 3. If you went on to get a Ph.D, you could get a job straight away. 4. Then you had to do a post-doc, then two...sometimes 3. 5. In the absence of jobs...some Ph.D.s started doing additional post-docs... But guess what? Do too many of those and you 'age' out of being hirable. Higher education doesn't guarantee you more money. I'm proof of that (with other factors coming into play of course). I still run into young people and their parents who just don't understand that getting a 4-year degree in Philosophy or Geography or Anthropology or Biology won't really help get them any job...never mind one in their 'field'. If you want to be a Marine Biologist...you pretty much need that Ph.D. and a couple of post-docs...and be hired to a permanent job in a timely fashion. And even if you're one of the lucky ones...you still likely won't make much money. All this...without having a free university/college education. Now what happens if we go ahead and flood that job market even further? I think a university education is great. Education is never 'wasted' in that it expands your knowledge base, so go right ahead and get that Philosophy degree...just don't think it's going to pay off. And now...especially with the internet and all the information available...you can 'self-educate'...so if it's only knowledge you're after...it's there for the taking...no need for 'free' university. And finally...what happens when you have a whole bunch of people...with a 'free' degree going up against people who paid for their degree (and might be horribly in debt - but that's another tangent)...for the same jobs? I'd be resentful...and rightly so...
Ben Hebbert Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 But did they have varnish? Dulcimers are fascinating. The Smithsonian has a collection, but the history and regional variations are what makes them interesting, not really how to make one. By the time the books in the 1970's 80's were being written on how to build one the models had been mono-cultured into two types of bodies. The dulcimer is interesting because it existed more as a concept which was interpreted differently county by county or clan by clan, than a definite singular model. The sheer number of regional variations are simply a musical instruments buffs pleasure to see. It's not a high art value instrument, it is a folk instrument, however gazing at authentic and true old Appalachian made dulcimers it is one of the most delightful ways to spent time engaging with a hand made culture. It was a culture of making that has a conceptual continuity, but everyone did their own thing with structure; the study of vernacular of structure is super cool in the same way violin vernacular is cool. Stephen, you've typically taken my comments a little deeper than I had... and how right you are. By asserting plans of the simplest way of creating one design, yes, they completely demolished the creative cultures of the past (when people actually played them),... and as they reduced instrument making to simple 'carpentry' it looses it's art. At least the mastubartory whimsical la-la-land of late Victorian romanticism allowed people to be free and artistic with their approach to violin making, even if that did lead to pariahs like Walter Mason... On a footnote, I'm proud to see that if you google "Walter Mason violin" this thread comes in the first four hits... http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327651-whats-the-worst-english-violin-youve-ever-seen-or-heard/page-3
Ganymede Piggot Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Posted April 22, 2016 The most interesting thing about Appalachian dulcimers is nobody in Appalachia ever heard of or saw one before about 1969.
Ben Hebbert Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 Why doesn't Maestronet have a like button?
Violadamore Posted April 22, 2016 Report Posted April 22, 2016 BM is under the impression this thread is about violinmaking go easy on him..... Ahhh, very good, Stephen, the abbreviation suits his posts.
Ganymede Piggot Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Posted April 22, 2016 Bernie Sanders missed his calling as a violin maker.
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