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JacksonMaberry

A Markie, a Cremonese, and a Chinese walk into a bar...

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But what does that mean?

It means........:

That the label is what I would call a “Fahrkarte”, and that, should you wish to know what the fiddle is, you will have to go back to square one, and check out the woodwork, ignoring the label completely.

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Jacob is saying there's nothing German about the label - I am saying the label doesn't look authentic but I took a bit of a different route.

As a result, we are both saying that you have to start from first principles with the identification of that violin, and there's no grounds for assuming it's Markneukirchen just because a fake label says it is.

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I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around certain things...such as someone going to the trouble to 'fake' what amounts to a 'low end' instrument to begin with...but then not taking the time to make sure they are making their one's correctly (or authentically)... :wacko:

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I was hoping Jacob would come in here and say something about the "Albrecht"! Thanks to Rue and Martin, also. I would be happy to provide any type of photos you all may want to try and nail this fiddle down. I'm simply very curious and eager to get some learning' on the subject!

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 I'm simply very curious and eager to get some learning' on the subject!

 

This would be a lesson for me too as I was probably the only one to guess all three wrong.  Maybe I should start to be the casual observer only. 

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This would be a lesson for me too as I was probably the only one to guess all three wrong.  Maybe I should start to be the casual observer only.

The way I read it, you got the "Markie" right given the info you had from me (if not just by process of elimination), and you spotted the cat! Don't be too hard on yourself

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I was hoping Jacob would come in here and say something about the "Albrecht"! Thanks to Rue and Martin, also. I would be happy to provide any type of photos you all may want to try and nail this fiddle down. I'm simply very curious and eager to get some learning' on the subject!

If you would like to work through this:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325798-quiz-for-addie/?p=538590

and post pictures of the features on the “Marky” half of the list, we might be able to have a discussion (argument :unsure:) about it

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When I get home from work I will do it! I would not presume to argue with you, though. I don't have a dog in the fight - the violin is what it is regardless of origin and age. I see this as a learning opportunity, nothing more or less.

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I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around certain things...such as someone going to the trouble to 'fake' what amounts to a 'low end' instrument to begin with...but then not taking the time to make sure they are making their one's correctly (or authentically)... :wacko:

They didn't go to much trouble at all. Mostly they just cut a label out of the sheet of labels sold for this purpose, and stuck it in.

 

I worked in a shop that sold thousands of fiddles early in the last century. They'd come in with all sorts of labels, and when I asked I was told 'Well you see, Conor, they'd just give the ould dog a name'. 

 

But sometimes, if there was a better fiddle that had no label, it wasn't unheard of to go to the die sinkers to have a plate or a brand made up, based on  real one, or on the brand on another fiddle or bow. Some of the brands were very good too. There was an old book in the workshop whose paper margins became violin labels. 

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I missed that label of the Markie (or was it added later?), but it leaves me confused somehow. I won't exclude that it was written by someone raised in Germany, especially the "r" and "n" are exactly how I would expect them in a writing between the 1920es and 60ies ca. The "1" as a simple line is unusual, of course. The Kurrent or Sütterlin was forbidden in 1941 by the Nazis and no more taught in school afterwards, but before this date there were many "latin" writers, too, and a lot of hybrid forms.

Possiby the writer was a german emigrant in the US, just as a speculation?

Nonetheless this label could be a "Fahrkarte" - by what is visible from the fiddle untill now it reminds me more of some "antique copies" made in Bad Brambach (which is a footwalk away from Mk). I'm curious for more photos!

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Hey Blankface! I added the label photo after the fact. I, too, recall having read about the profusion of cursive styles in use, but wasn't sure what to do with that information. I will happily oblige with more photos of any of the violins, but especially the Teutonic fiddle.in question

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I think that one must be a little cagey about attributing such violins. Evidently it is a “copy” (copy of what would be another good question), made by someone with a solid violin making training, but fairly limited knowledge of what old violins look like. Every leading edge has been sandpapered into oblivion, and liberal use has been made of the old “screwdriver antiquing”, even the original peg -hole bushing has been “screwdrivered”. Sometimes I almost can't help thinking that it would be nice to be French; then one could say “Ecole d'est”(pardon missing accents) to it, switch ones brain off, and go back into hibernation. The 1926 on the label seems a little ambitious.

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 The 1926 on the label seems a little ambitious.

 

I'm wondering if "Johannes Abrecht" like similar names are a sort of GDR trade names for oversea exports.

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I would also go for "Ecole de L'est", most probably post WWII. Quite happy to believe the violin passed through Markneukirchen or was sold by a Markneukirchen firm, but the aesthetic seems more like something that might get knocked up in Budapest or Prague.

I really don't believe the label has anything to tell us. The violin is a sophisticated (if slightly disturbing) piece of work, the label just doesn't fit ...

 

re labels - everyone wants a label. It helps violin shops to ogranize their stock and in helps players to feel like they've bought "something". When a realistic label would do little to enhance a violin's commercial prospects, people have always put in an alternative. Though in this particular case, an original label would be an asset.

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IMG_20160323_123401.jpg

Wonder if background on this photo speaks: "rubbish as usual"?  :P

 Yes, the mudroom is an embarrassment. Now that it's spring I can't avoid spring cleaning. Good natural light in there though!

Everyone, thank you for your thoughts on the violins. It was especially interesting to read the comments on the "Albrecht". Fairly nice fiddle, wherever it came from. I have found this very educational, all around!

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"Eastern school" is a charming category, especially on Holy Thursday :rolleyes: .

 

In post #12 I read, that even violin C, "the Cremonese", could be made (in the white) in Hungary and finished in Cremona, so is this an Eastern violin, too?

 

BTW, the trade mark Johann Albrecht is still alive, Martin mentioned it before, "made in Germany by skilled craftsmen" (Bubenreuth?)

http://www.brobstviolins.com/advancedplayer.htm

What about that the OP was imported by a former owner of this brand?

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I may be putting more faith in dealers than I should, but I'd be shocked if the Digiuni was not made by the man himself, as it was bought, with papers, from Weisshar by Anna's teacher for her use.

The theory that the Albrecht was a shop violin imported to the US and given a fake date and fancy name seems pretty reasonable to me.

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I may be putting more faith in dealers than I should, but I'd be shocked if the Digiuni was not made by the man himself, as it was bought, with papers, from Weisshar by Anna's teacher for her use..

Perhaps he varnished it before he labeled it? http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/334319-interesting-article-about-problems-in-modern-cremona/ happy-smiley12.gif

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Here is a corner shot of violin B. What I'm not clear on is whether the swirly bits are a varnishing artifact or some sort of figuring.

 

Sorry to interrupt the course of the thread currently, but I was scraping down a plate this afternoon and noticed some of this pattern (no sandpaper).  After closer inspection and a few tests, I have some new observations, some of which I knew already, but didn't think if it at the time:

 

The longitudinal fibers squiggle around the rays that run perpendicular to them.  When you have a surface very slightly slanted, the cut ends of these fibers will form the random swirls and squiggles, leaving a fine swirly texture to the surface.  It won't show up too strongly if the first things on the wood are relatively clear, but if you get dye or pigment on the wood before the fine texture is covered, it will stand out.

 

After I noticed the pattern on the bare scraped wood, I put on some thin shellac... and the pattern was less obvious.  Then I rubbed on some pigment... and it really showed the pattern very strongly.

 

OK... back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

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Seems to be some confusion about the Diguini. He is a "modern" Cremonese maker to the extent that most of his output is 20th century. He died in 1937, so the contemporary practice of some Cremonese "makers" of selling modified Chinese or Reghin instruments is totally irrelevant to this violin, which looks like a very good and typical example.

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