Immersion course

[David Burgess]

 

As for the comments of being a professional: I don't think the Kennedy Center would have invited Don back for a second performance if he wasn't doing something right, nor would the Lincoln Center nor would Carnegie Hall. Don doesn't need to prove anything to anyone and I always question those who seem to do so. The real pro's don't need to tell you, they show you.

 

Wow, Don has taught violin making at the Kennedy Center, the Lincoln Center, and Carnegie Hall?   

[Violadamore]

Fleas and lice cost extra; we don't want to make the experience prohibitively expensive.      However, rats can be caught during carefully conducted field trips which some participants find preferable to being locked in with candles and possibly a Bible.

Oooh, yum!  Fresh game for breakfast.  That would be certainly be one of those priceless indelible memories worth paying for.............    

 

I guess that, in the light of his invariably positive explanations we should lighten up on the innkeeper, now that it's clear what he's selling.  To make a turn on a phrase used by I33tplaya back in post #47, obviously he's just helpin' those old folks ovah tha fence.   

[MaestronetLurker]

Matt,

 

You may want to lay off insulting respected members of the luthier community if you want to make a good impression (bow envy, for example).  Some people here are offended, and understandably so.  It doesn't seem as though you fully understand some the criticism, but they're pretty well laid out.  Keep in mind that anyone searching Pinecrest Inn or looking for information on the violin making course may come across this page, and it would be better to be receptive to the critiques although clearly there is some mudslinging in your direction. 

 

I see that you've made some adjustments, and there is much less to object to from the standpoint of professional luthiers.  You mention that you're a piano player.  Think of it this way, if someone were to tell you that an immersion course in piano playing for 160 hours was going to allow you to produce an 'amazing' album 'that you will cherish forever' or record a 'professional' album.  Does that seem likely? 

 

The learning curve for violin making as with violin playing is very steep.  Even if there are some elements like pre-carved scrolls, pre-assembled rib structures or tops and backs that are roughed out, there are still lots of places to go wrong.  People who go to violin making school for 3 years and make 7 instruments under the guidance of professional instructors do not make instruments that are 'comparable to 'high end custom violins in the market'.  That isn't a reasonable claim, nor is 'make your own Stradavari'.  I know some of this was already covered, but I'm not sure you're accepting some of it.

 

In 160 hours there must be a lot of work done ahead of time because many professionals take longer than that to make an instrument even when they know what they're doing.  Sounds to me like they're finishing off a partially pre-made instrument.  I'm sure some people will enjoy this, and make an instrument that will have sentimental value, but no real value on the market.  Definitely not a 'professional instrument'.  To the layperson these may seem like nice instruments, and may be better than the low end factory instrument that they own, but you are overselling the potential of this course by an absurdly wide margin.  Clearly you're not really aware of that, but you have some real professionals telling you and it would be wise to reconsider some of these final points. 

 

Of course the tuition can be debated as well, but it also seems absurd to pay $1,000/week in tuition.  Definitely not to be compared to professional violin making courses of any kind.  This is a hobbyist crash course that gets them a 'workshop' violin that might be decent compared with some factory violins, but will probably not be something that would sell in any professional violin shop regardless of price.

[Rue]

I just watched a couple of YouTube videos of Don Roy.  Seems like a nice guy and fiddle player!

[David Burgess]

I just watched a couple of YouTube videos of Don Roy.  Seems like a nice guy and fiddle player!

Yeah, probably a nice guy, and some marketing guy got a little carried away.

 

Matt, if you are looking for opportunities to fill your hotel, have you considered hosting events for bikers? Maybe I could even convince my local group to come out there, if you could bring in Lynyrd Skynyrd for a concert or two.

 

The hotel would way more than fill up, but no problem, some of these guys will just sleep on the ground, maybe try to find a spot under a tree if it's raining. Others will bring in their bikes on megabuck toy-hauler motorhomes.

 

Might spill a little beer on your piano.

[Justlearning]

Matt,

 

You may want to lay off insulting respected members of the luthier community if you want to make a good impression (bow envy, for example).  Some people here are offended, and understandably so.  It doesn't seem as though you fully understand some the criticism, but they're pretty well laid out.  Keep in mind that anyone searching Pinecrest Inn or looking for information on the violin making course may come across this page, and it would be better to be receptive to the critiques although clearly there is some mudslinging in your direction. 

 

I see that you've made some adjustments, and there is much less to object to from the standpoint of professional luthiers.  You mention that you're a piano player.  Think of it this way, if someone were to tell you that an immersion course in piano playing for 160 hours was going to allow you to produce an 'amazing' album 'that you will cherish forever' or record a 'professional' album.  Does that seem likely? 

 

The learning curve for violin making as with violin playing is very steep.  Even if there are some elements like pre-carved scrolls, pre-assembled rib structures or tops and backs that are roughed out, there are still lots of places to go wrong.  People who go to violin making school for 3 years and make 7 instruments under the guidance of professional instructors do not make instruments that are 'comparable to 'high end custom violins in the market'.  That isn't a reasonable claim, nor is 'make your own Stradavari'.  I know some of this was already covered, but I'm not sure you're accepting some of it.

 

In 160 hours there must be a lot of work done ahead of time because many professionals take longer than that to make an instrument even when they know what they're doing.  Sounds to me like they're finishing off a partially pre-made instrument.  I'm sure some people will enjoy this, and make an instrument that will have sentimental value, but no real value on the market.  Definitely not a 'professional instrument'.  To the layperson these may seem like nice instruments, and may be better than the low end factory instrument that they own, but you are overselling the potential of this course by an absurdly wide margin.  Clearly you're not really aware of that, but you have some real professionals telling you and it would be wise to reconsider some of these final points. 

 

Of course the tuition can be debated as well, but it also seems absurd to pay $1,000/week in tuition.  Definitely not to be compared to professional violin making courses of any kind.  This is a hobbyist crash course that gets them a 'workshop' violin that might be decent compared with some factory violins, but will probably not be something that would sell in any professional violin shop regardless of price.

 

 

I certainly understand what you are saying and what many of the others are saying. And I am more than willing and happy to make helpful corrections so people understand exactly what they are getting. I am currently working on some new language to describe  what you are saying but in a way that will still appeal to our intended audience.

 

However I will never stand for personal degrading attacks and over the top insulting comments. That is a fiddle played two ways.

 

For those making honest and legitimate suggestions I do offer my sincere thanks for your thoughts and concerns. Many of these legitimate comments I will be bringing to Don. You are more than welcomed to check back next week after I have had made  the changes.

 

All the best.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I hope this discussion was helpful to all parties; Those who were a bit ruffled and those who are offering a chance to get away in a beautiful spot and experience a few weeks of lutherie.

 

I offer the following as I thought it was funny, not to poke at anyone involved. I might go to an intensive with this fellow.  I'd get a chuckle out of it.  Hope you find it amusing.

 

Hit play to hear the interview: http://www.npr.org/2016/01/19/463589100/comedian-jon-benjamins-jazz-album-is-full-of-real-untapped-un-talent

[Matthew Noykos]

I hope this discussion was helpful to all parties; Those who were a bit ruffled and those who are offering a chance to get away in a beautiful spot and experience a few weeks of lutherie.

 

I offer the following as I thought it was funny, not to poke at anyone involved. I might go to an intensive with this fellow.  I'd get a chuckle out of it.  Hope you find it amusing.

 

Hit play to hear the interview: http://www.npr.org/2016/01/19/463589100/comedian-jon-benjamins-jazz-album-is-full-of-real-untapped-un-talent

That is so funny. I don't think I've ever heard Robert Siegel lose his composure like that. Even though it was slight, you could tell it hit his funny bone.

[PASEWICZ]

However I will never stand for personal degrading attacks and over the top insulting comments. That is a fiddle played two ways.

Were any of the comments made by me or anyone else untrue?

It certainly seems that every comment was in response to bogus claims made by you. If you found the personal, degrading, or insulting, maybe stop making those claims.

[David Burgess]

 

However I will never stand for personal degrading attacks and over the top insulting comments.

 

If anyone read and remembers your post number 64, would they consider the above to be credible and truthful?

 

You've had some good people here try to coach you along to a better place. If you are unusually resistant to learning, it makes it hard, despite their best intentions.

[not telling]

A few thoughts: at the least four thousand dollars tuition should include tool rental, materials, field trips, everything but room and board, which is understandably not included. If it's really true that 100% of the participants have returned then that's impressive, and obviously the experience matters. But being self-taught in violin making isn't a real selling point, nor is being a member of the VSA, and for what the class is, neither is a plater cast of a great instrument or two. Suggesting that a month is a realistic time line for a first instrument isn't honest, and even saying that participants are building a violin themselves when in reality it's mostly pre-carved parts...it's just misleading.

No one cares if the teacher is a good violin player. Or rather, that information is irrelevant to his teaching credentials as a luthier. It's irrelevant that Maine is a nice place to go looking for a moose or whale, even though experiences matter. This high tuition justified by way of "the experience", seems invalid to me. That's almost like saying, "you don't come to this class to learn to make a violin, you come for the experience". Ok, if that's the case, just say it. Then luthier people might have less of a problem with the concept.

Violin maker fantasy camp...I like it. Everyone gets a lab coat or leather apron, glasses with a cord attached, and an artistic salon haircut and style, and a coached photoshoot for the campers' websites wherein the participants can hold a plate and arching gouge with a poignant look of love and sadness. Scarf not included.

[MeyerFittings]

Violin maker fantasy camp...I like it. Everyone gets a lab coat or leather apron, glasses with a cord attached, and an artistic salon haircut and style, and a coached photoshoot for the campers' websites wherein the participants can hold a plate and arching gouge with a poignant look of love and sadness. Scarf not included.

 

 

"You know where to put the cork!" 

Here comes Uncle Ernie.

[Will L]

Oooh, yum!  Fresh game for breakfast.  That would be certainly be one of those priceless indelible memories worth paying for.............    

 

The more inedible the game the more indelible the memories. 

[Rick Hyslop]

Hello all.

 

I know I really shouldn't make this post, but this particular thread and the emotions it seems to have bred has been bothering me quite a lot.

 

I used to post on Mnet for better or worse and I enjoyed communing with others who have similar interests. However, ultimately it was because of such over heated and often mean spirited arguments that I made a decision to stop visiting the site except for searching out specific questions I had, for which there is a great wealth of information and I am still extremely thankful.

 

Unfortunately somehow I got sucked in to reading this thread all the way through !

 

I have no idea who the various players are regarding the advertised course, nor am I likely to take the necessary time to  find out. I am surprised though that this topic has generated such a mountain of loathing.

 

In the end I see nothing at all different in the actions and perhaps misplaced enthusiasms of the advertisers of this "course" than what happens in the world of business that surrounds all of us on a daily basis. I also can hardly imagine that this "entrepreneurial endeavour" will bring the art of lutherie to it's knees. Why then all the fuss ? I realize the liberal use of references to associations and unlawful use of images is completely uncool but these are the only points where I feel there is actually something to complain about.

 

Can this man teach violin making ? I won't be one to attend and find out, but I feel that I have to step in where I see what is in my opinion not the best behaviour.

 

Live and let live.

 

Will this offered B and B violin making experience actually be harmful to anyone ? Not unless you sell your house to attend in the hopes that you will become the next Stradivari. Even if such people do exist, I doubt one could dissuade them from doing so any more than one could dissuade someone from dropping an equal amount of cash in order to sit on a cruise ship for a week.

 

Personally, I take the time to look very carefully into any experiences which I feel may be beneficial to my life and only after such considerations will I act on it. In general this approach has worked for me. Would I attend this course ? No, it would not be for me. Perhaps it might work for someone else ?

 

I wish everyone well in their endeavours, lutherie and otherwise.

 

Sincerely.

 

r.

[Conor Russell]

I have dipped in and out of this thread since it started, and like Rick, have thought the better of contributing. His thoughts reflect mine to a tee. Well said Rick.

 

Yes, the advertising on the website may have been misguided, and may have used materials without permissions etc, but this has been corrected, and the hotel owner responded to the criticisms, I thought with grace and good will.  I wish him well with his business.

 

With good teaching, and a teacher who doesn't let students get stuck, there's no reason why a portion of a class couldn't finish a white violin in a month. Yet there are plenty of hobby makers who attend one week courses year after year, never seem to get a fiddle finished, and spend many thousands in the process. Why? Because they enjoy it. Let them at it.

[David Burgess]

In the end I see nothing at all different in the actions and perhaps misplaced enthusiasms of the advertisers of this "course" than what happens in the world of business that surrounds all of us on a daily basis.

Does that make it incumbent upon one to accept any or all of what goes on in the world of business, without comment?

 

In this thread, we've had comments on the program and the way it's promoted, and we've also had comments on the comments. Seems pretty normal for any forum I've read. And I think it's normal for people to have different opinions on what constitutes good business ethics. So some of that gets hashed out here.

I would personally have felt more empathy with JustLearning, if his first appearance hadn't seemed to have so much retributive content.

[PASEWICZ]

I have a problem in comparisons and equity drawn to real violin making schools. I know some of the teachers at those schools, and any comparison is misleading at best.

Some of the objectionable things were corrected when professionals brought them up, however, would the author have corrected without him being called on them? Obviously not as they were not, and even now there are no attributions for the photos that remain.

The explanation of the unauthorized use of the copyrighted material from the Library of Congress is blatantly false as this is posted in the "Legal" section at the bottom of every page, as well as similarly posted in the "Copyright" section on the left of the page:

----

"About Copyright and the Collections

"permissions and fees may be required from the individual copyright holder. You should determine for yourself whether or not an item is protected by copyright or in the public domain, and then satisfy any copyright or use restrictions when publishing or distributing materials from our collections. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond what is allowed by fair use or other exemptions requires written permission from the copyright holder.

View more information about copyright law from the U.S. Copyright Office"

----

So, if this "course" was advertised honestly, and we would have had realistic answers why it was not, I do not think it would have gone this long and my comments would have ended with "Oh my".

Btw Connor,

They are claiming "A finished, stringed ready to play, professional instrument" not in the white.

[murrmac]

They are claiming "A finished, stringed ready to play, proffesional instrument" not in the white.

 

If the words within quotation marks refer to an actual quote from the site, I have to say that I cannot see them anywhere.... presumably that quote seeks to  impugn the author's grammatical  ["stringed"]  and spelling ["proffesional"] ability as well as his business ethics ... but, as I say,  I see no evidence of these words on the site.

[PASEWICZ]

If the words within quotation marks refer to an actual quote from the site, I have to say that I cannot see them anywhere.... presumably that quote seeks to impugn the author's grammatical ["stringed"] and spelling ["proffesional"] ability as well as his business ethics ... but, as I say, I see no evidence of these words on the site.

Sorry, I am responsible for the misspelling, I was bouncing back and forth taking it from this photo.

[Peter K-G]

I think Jeffery should delete this thread as he did with another similar a while ago. 

 

This is not a Pegbox thread and should not be staying around on the Internet.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Peter K-G

[murrmac]

Sorry, I am responsible for the misspelling, I was bouncing back and forth taking it from this photo.image.png

My apologies for  putting two and two together and coming up with five ....  

[David Burgess]

If the words within quotation marks refer to an actual quote from the site, I have to say that I cannot see them anywhere.... presumably that quote seeks to  impugn the author's grammatical  ["stringed"]  and spelling ["proffesional"] ability as well as his business ethics ... but, as I say,  I see no evidence of these words on the site.

While some things have been changed on the web site since this thread began, what Jerry quoted was still there, shortly after he posted. In other words, it's not a cached copy from earlier in the thread, which has since been changed.

 

 

I also think David and Jerry should apologize and move on.

 

What do you think I should apologize for? What about others, who have given much much stronger expressions of disapproval?

[Conor Russell]

Yes Jerry, a stringed, finished, ready to play, professional instrument might seem a bit optimistic, but is it not pointed out that this will depend on the ability of the student.

 

I would hate to think that this thread would crop up every time someone searches for the hotel in question, which has had very good reviews on other sites.

[PASEWICZ]

Yes Jerry, a stringed, finished, ready to play, professional instrument might seem a bit optimistic, but is it not pointed out that this will depend on the ability of the student.

I would hate to think that this thread would crop up every time someone searches for the hotel in question, which has had very good reviews on other sites.

Agreed, and I would hate to have this hotel crop up when someone is looking for a violin making school.

[Rick Hyslop]

Does that make it incumbent upon one to accept any or all of what goes on in the world of business, without comment?

 

In this thread, we've had comments on the program and the way it's promoted, and we've also had comments on the comments. Seems pretty normal for any forum I've read. And I think it's normal for people to have different opinions on what constitutes good business ethics. So some of that gets hashed out here.

I would personally have felt more empathy with JustLearning, if his first appearance hadn't seemed to have so much retributive content.

 

Hey there David.

 

I was really only remarking on the "spin" that most if not all businesses apply to their products.

 

"World's best cup of coffee." type of sentiment. I personally never believe any of the hype generated to sell a product and as a rule I am more naturally inclined to pay attention to things which are understated.

 

r.