Immersion course


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David,

The ownership of the plaster casts is a really good question.

I think there is a pretty big difference between using them as a personal reference to make you a better maker, to enhance your personal skill set, and using them as a selling point in a money making venture, advertising there use online in an attempt to boost paying attendees. Did every attendee at Oberlin get the option of walking away with copies of the casts? If so, WOW, thats pretty great.

I assume Mr. Roy has attended the Oberlin workshop. (?) It strikes me as right in line from past behavior I've observed to then take that experience and use it to bolster his own inflated sense of importance and talent and make money off of people any way he can. I find it distasteful at best, if you couldn't tell.

There are workshops all over the country, led be very competent makers or groups of makers that have spent a lifetime honing and refining their craft. Is there room for one more? Sure, why not. But at that price, and using the resources he is, I just feel that there should be some accountability.

But again, a fool and his money.

This is what I'm wondering too. Did all those at Oberlin receive/make casts? Did Mr. Roy attend or perhaps are they copied from one of the references he's noted that may have attended?

Personally, I have no idea about their use AFTER Oberlin but perhaps, now considering this, the folks at Oberlin may need to consider certain guidelines of use with certain things produced at the workshop.

DGSR☺

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If there are no legal requirements or accreditation required to teach a course...then it's just buyer beware...

 

If his clients are happy after the experience - that's fine.

 

Did I read the material wrong?  He is just charging a large fee...for a one month workshop - and promises that you will end up with a workable violin at the end of it - he doesn't say you will be a master luthier after the month is over...

 

I went on a week-long cattle drive about 20 years ago...slept under the stars, rode a horse 8 hours a day...herded cattle up in the mountains of Wyoming (so beautiful up there! :wub:)...doesn't make me a wrangler... ^_^

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If there are no legal requirements or accreditation required to teach a course...then it's just buyer beware...

If his clients are happy after the experience - that's fine.

Did I read the material wrong? He is just charging a large fee...for a one month workshop - and promises that you will end up with a workable violin at the end of it - he doesn't say you will be a master luthier after the month is over...

I went on a week-long cattle drive about 20 years ago...slept under the stars, rode a horse 8 hours a day...herded cattle up in the mountains of Wyoming (so beautiful up there! :wub:)...doesn't make me a wrangler... ^_^

I think the claim of it being the only 100% full immersion school in the US is extremely questionable. The claim that the finished instrument will be comparable to many high-end new fiddles, likely a big stretch as well considering most if not all high-end makers aren't using pre-fab necks, tops and backs. Sound is subjective but the workmanship comparable to many new high-end instruments? Doubtful. Not knowing if any of the instructors attended Oberlin, I think the reference to the Oberlin casts is likely trying to draw on the Oberlin high standards. As well, there was no request to use Joe's photo.

DGSR☺

* I also wanted to note that I have no clue if Mr. Roy is even the individual having written up the various articles in reference...

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Kind of misleading. As an amateur, my only training was at our local arts college OCAD (ontario college of art and design) where Philip Davis taught in the late 90's. Students would build either violins or guitars. Although Phil isn't a household name in the violin world, he is a very well respected maker and restorer of viols and baroque bows and an excellent teacher. Training was focused on classic technique you'd expect from Newark. 3 of my colleges actually went on to Newark. With limited studio time, even the best students would take over a year to finish their first instrument. 

 

I only hope those thinking of attending this course, educate themselves ahead of time as to what it really takes to build even a violin like object. Heck it can take a month just to lean how to sharpen and use basic hand tools.

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I know what we post here becomes public property, but I wish he had asked me if he could use my photos of the Betts at Oberlin.

I'm searching for some clever quip about a varnish immersion course but it escapes me...

Joe

 

 

As a  courtesy,  sending an informal  "cease and desist"  letter would be your first step Joe.

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Looks like Joe's "Betts" picture has been replaced. Someone listened.

the white gloved pic ? It's still up . clicking on the top bar "special events" without scrolling down.

This is the kind of problem in free market economies ....ya just never know what they will come up with next. I'd hate to think of someone coming out of the experience thinking they knew how to make a violin, and could now start teaching on their own as well. If it were my cash and month personally I'd choose a different approach.

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...there's also been some re-wording..the Oberlin reference is gone and it's now the only 100% etc etc in MAINE as apposed to the entirety of the US..and the pre-carves are now only used if (when) you can't finish the work yourself...

DGSR☺

The VSA reference is also gone, and this is added to the bottom:

"* *Those unable to complete a specific section will be provided with a pre-carved piece in order to move through the course.

This course does not qualify you as a professional violin maker. It is designed to walk you through the process of building a violin and afford you the basic knowledge to continue the art. We strongly advise that anyone considering becoming a professional violin maker should consider one of the great violin schools in America or contact a local master for a potential apprenticeship ."

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And this is added to the bottom:

"This course does not qualify you as a professional violin maker. It is designed to walk you through the process of building a violin and afford you the basic knowledge to continue the art. We strongly advise that anyone considering becoming a professional violin maker should consider one of the great violin schools in America or contact a local master for a potential apprenticeship ."

Hi Jerry,

I just caught that too. Good, strong advice

DGSR☺

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

 

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

 

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

 

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

 

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now.  I hope they do. Shameful.

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

 

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

 

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

 

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

 

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now.  I hope they do. Shameful.

 

Pretty sweeping comment, Justlearning.  Especially for a newcomer (just joined, first post).

 

My customers are welcome to read what I've written.

 

I believe the only comment I made pertained to copyright (using other's photos on your website without permission), which it appears Mr. Roy had done.  Looks as though he has paid attention and removed the offending image (but I haven't checked).

 

As for other, more damning comments, I think something in the approach of Mr. Roy's site has hit some nerves.  I have no idea what the reality of the course might be. I suppose time will tell.  I happen to like Maine, BTW.

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now. I hope they do. Shameful.

An interesting first comment.

I know for myself (as I have certainly raised a voice on this thread) I've actually felt such discomfort reading some of the claims by the 'immersion course" that I felt need to comment to RAISE the standard of this craft and business as apposed lower it. I question whether you know anything of this craft or not. Reading the whole thing made me cringe and I'm glad they've made changes to their claims. They knew they were wrong. I still find issue with some of the wording and I hope no one seriously believes they will leave after a month with a "high-end" instrument.

Maine is beautiful. Go for the scenery and wood whittling...

DGSR☺

- I'll note again I have no idea if Mr. Roy has any relation to the retreat writings. Don't know the man, don't know his instruments...

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Dear Mr. Moderator,

 

Thank you for posting my comments. I wasn't sure you would. I did qualify my comments with the word "some". Not all the comments were those I took issues with. Some were fair and had good things to suggest. I was the others I took issue with.

 

I happen to know Don and play one of his instruments. He has done more to promote the craft than most could do in a dozen life times. He create a fiddle orchestra that has grown to over 140 members. He welcomes those with 6 months worth of lessons into the orchestra, working with them to find a part they can play and then welcoming a  classically trained soloist to sit side by side with the newbie. All treated equally and each welcomed to bring their talent, raw or accomplished and play together. I have witnessed him find instruments for those who had the passion to learn but couldn't afford a real instrument.

 

Those who used terms like "con man" and referred to his school as no better than a thief stealing money, those are to which I was referring to. By their comments they have proven their worth. And in my estimation, that doesn't amount to much.

 

Perhaps I could have clarified my comments to not include those who were simply looking at misplaced photo. Perhaps an email to the owner of that photo might also clarify some things.

 

I have watched reputations vanish overnight because of an uneducated social media posting. And I have also watched social media those exposed for who they are.

 

I try to live my life with one rule. Seek first to understand. After which, I might also be understood.

 

Regards,

 

Just Learning

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

 

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

 

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

 

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

 

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now.  I hope they do. Shameful.

I made an account out of slight frustration for this post. Having attended violin making school you usually work 150+ weeks to graduate. There are some great ways to get into the business without attending one of the few schools. There are plenty of workshops. The issue at hand is the hinted ties of association to VSA sponsored programs, using images that aren't his, and the obscene cost of tuition to build a 'master quality instrument'. I've only made 8 instruments, have been working in violin shops for 7 years, and don't throw around the word master.

If I knew nothing about this business, about what it takes to get into the business, and came across this post, I might be thankful for the ability to see some great names saying this is a bad idea.

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

 

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

 

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

 

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

 

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now.  I hope they do. Shameful.

What makes you think that anything "another creates" is automatically worthy of praise, reverence, or even respect? A lot of people create things that are not worth a second look, and indeed, only serve to further their own selfish ends. 

 

The act of creation is not in and of itself a noble endeavor. Many creations have only served to subjugate and separate naive, but well meaning, people from their money, property, and possessions. These creations are not worthy of praise, or even acceptance. Rather, they should be called out and exposed for what they are.

 

And if, in the future, we are proved to be misguided and to have wrongly judged another persons creation, then I will be the first to admit my fault. But until then, it is neither "shameful" nor divisive to speak your mind when you encounter a "creation" that you find misleading and a poor representation of the craft and livelihood that you have chosen as your life's work. 

 

In fact, NOT speaking out would "lower your craft" much more than a silent acceptance of, at best, an ill conceived and poorly executed creation and at worst a deliberate attempt to appropriate the work of others and turn it into a sham "violin school" serving only your ego and self aggrandisement to the detriment of the "craft".

 

I consider teaching to be an act above the demands of normal commerce. Meaning, you are taking peoples trust, their futures, their aspirations, their dreams, not to mention their money, into your hands and agreeing, or promising, to fulfill all of it to the best of your ability. Should you be compensated? Absolutely. But you must start with honesty and full disclosure as to what you are offering. That is not what I saw here.

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I consider teaching to be an act above the demands of normal commerce. Meaning, you are taking peoples trust, their futures, their aspirations, their dreams, not to mention their money, into your hands and agreeing, or promising, to fulfill all of it to the best of your ability. Should you be compensated? Absolutely. But you must start with honesty and full disclosure as to what you are offering. 

Emphatically like.  Would like to see this tattooed on the backs of the hands of any number of people in authority in education today.

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I am finding this entire thread very disturbing. You do not raise yourself to a higher level by attempting to destroy that which another creates. You only sink beneath your very comment.

 

Some of you understand what it takes to operate a business, start something from scratch, yet you carry on like an envious school children gossiping in a dark cloak room.

 

Many of you have your own web sites listed for all to not only read your comments but see exactly who you are, where you live what you do for a living.

 

That which should unite you is destroying any credibility you might have had. You have lowered your craft to that of a biased selfish egocentric wanna be.

 

Some of you understand, this is social media. Your very customers could be reading your comments right now.  I hope they do. Shameful.

Do you have any sense of how similar your own comments are, to the comments you're complaining about?

Just curious whether you caught the incongruity, and how you go about processing a different set of standards for yourself, versus those you apply to others. ;)

 

Since you claim an awareness of the power of social media, and appear to admire Mr. Roy, you might have cast him in more positive light, had you said something more like:

 

"Dear readers;

Your comments have been noted, and Mr. Roy is in the process of updating the website in response to your concerns." :)

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I think my customers expect me to be biased, selfish and egotistical, not to mention opinionated, somewhat contrary, hypocritical, and generally expect me to be a know it all that talks too much, gosh, and that's the good stuff. :lol:

 

But in all seriousness, I think any business, regardless of what it is, can vanquish itself of criticisms by peers and customers alike, by simply being straight forward with verbiage and not making promises/statements that are not realistic.

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I have read through this thread once again, and every comment I find to be honest and understandable. These comments come from those who know what learning violin making is about, and what teaching violin making is about. The people offering this course made misrepresentations, used "borrowed" materials without permission, and referenced organizations without permission, that if not done for nefarious intentions, clearly show the lack of understanding of the subject matter for which they are claiming instructor status.

"Just learning" seems to be exhibiting the same naïveté in her/his comments as the originators of the course, criticizing those who commented without even a passing understanding of the arguments presented.

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