Why choose a high-priced factory violin over a bench-made violin?

[Rue]

Given the recent discussions (here and elsewhere) on pricing and value:

I've asked this before...and don't think I got a full answer...so I'll try again.
 
Why would a buyer choose an expensive factory violin over a bench-made violin?  Wouldn't the bench-made (in the same price range) likely be better and hold it's value better?
 
Example:

http://www.sharmusic.com/Instruments/Violin/Advanced-2K--10K/Andreas-Haensel-Primo-Violin.axd#sthash.8umURTev.dpbs

[uncle duke]

I'm so just like mesmerized by your question Rue-  could you please define what you'd think the factory is and the bench made is? 

[gowan]

I'd guess that it all depends on the skill level of the makers, i.e. no blanket conclusion can be drawn.  In a shop-made instrument (factory made), at the highest level, the workers may well be more skilled than some one maker.  I'm thinking of the William Harris Lee Shop as an example.  Maybe the Vuillaume shop is another example.  Workers in the shop get a steady salary while a single maker trying to make a living might not have a very stable income.  Thus excellent makers might choose to work in a shop setting.  And if the manager of the shop (Lee and Vuillaume) may exert a beneficial supervision that guarantees high quality.  Now if we get to discussing the mass production, as might happen in China, it is a different story.  But I imagine that the higher priced shop instruments would not come from the mass production factories.

[Violadamore]

Well, consumer ignorance and multi-year waiting lists aside, it's just so much easier to buy something pre-packaged off the shelf from a distributor, than to, say, have to chase down some obsessive clot in a bunny suit hiding in the German forests, search all the more questionable bars in Ann Arbor, run the risks of what might happen to you at a luthier's convention, or confront the Dark Lord of Klosterneuburg in his lair, etc., etc., though it would doubtless be far more entertaining and rewarding, as well as get you a much better fiddle.   

[Rue]

Uncle Duke: I gave an example of factory...in the example above. The description indicates it comes from a workshop...not made by only one person.

I thought bench-made meant made by one person only. So any of the one-person MN luthiers would qualify.

[Rue]

Thanks Gowan and Vda. Ease of purchase I can understand. ..but when I spend over $XXX I want more input...

Then there is the question of resale value...

Although I suppose a known factory violin might be worth more than a bench-made violin by in unknown maker even if quality is exactly the same?

[Violadamore]

I suppose a known factory violin might be worth more than a bench-made violin by in unknown maker even if quality is exactly the same?

IMHO, excepting very rare cases like E.H. Roths (which have developed a collectible value) anything certifiably bench made by a "book-attested" luthier will appreciate in value to some degree, while the rest are simply regarded as "trade" instruments which may hold their value against inflation if you're lucky. Anyway, whatever you paid in the shop, you won't know the reality until something goes to auction. 

[DarylG]

Example:

http://www.sharmusic.com/Instruments/Violin/Advanced-2K--10K/Andreas-Haensel-Primo-Violin.axd#sthash.8umURTev.dpbs

Is that a "from the workshop of" type of instrument? The "Primo" suggests that it might be. I'll admit that I'm confused about what you are trying to say with your example link.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Even most of the questionable bars in Ann Arbor aren't so bad, Violadamore.

 

I agree with Gowan.  It depends: Level of the product, supply (how many are produced within a set market), resale history of said product, etc.

 

That said, 8K isn't going to buy you a single maker fiddle from an upper tier maker... and $15K would be roughly half of what you'd need to shell out in Ann Arbor for one of our local characters.  I do know of other established makers selling in the mid teens that produce some very nice instruments, however.

 

In addition to access (mentioned by Violadamore), I think easy-to-understand (market value and quality) play into shop fiddles like Vuillaumes or 20s Roths.  They aren't in the same price ranges, of course, but both are relatively easy to recognize, of a consistent quality, usually well marked, made in various "grades", and the prices realized in auction and retail settings are easily accessible. Hill bows from any set period would be another example of this.

 

I think we have potential to get caught up in semantics with "factory" and "bench made".  A workshop setting isn't necessarily "mass production" and that production can be accomplished at benches.

[Violadamore]

Rue, I found this while looking at the Shar site.  http://www.sharmusic.com/Instruments/Violin/Professional-10K/Celia-Bridges-Violin-1997-Ann-Arbor-MI-USA.axd#sthash.UBYuiVoc.dpbs  How's that for "bench-made" or "single-maker"?  And I didn't have to visit even one bar. 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Gosh...  Haven't seen one of Celia's fiddles since the '90s.

 

Is not having to visit a bar an advantage, or a disadvantage??

[uncle duke]

Given the recent discussions (here and elsewhere) on pricing and value:

I've asked this before...and don't think I got a full answer...so I'll try again.

 

Why would a buyer choose an expensive factory violin over a bench-made violin?  Wouldn't the bench-made (in the same price range) likely be better and hold it's value better?

 

Example:

http://www.sharmusic.com/Instruments/Violin/Advanced-2K--10K/Andreas-Haensel-Primo-Violin.axd#sthash.8umURTev.dpbs

The only reason that comes to mind Rue is that the decision to be made between the two types may be a word of mouth type of deal.  Then there are other types of people that just want the finer things, I guess.  I have no other reasons or answers.  

[Rue]

I saw that Shar has a 'fine violin' section...with no prices listed!  LOL.

 

Well...it was just at that 'below' $10,000 price point that I was mainly wondering about.  That also seems to be a cut-off point, price wise, for consumers. 

[David Burgess]

Well, consumer ignorance and multi-year waiting lists aside, it's just so much easier to buy something pre-packaged off the shelf from a distributor, than to, say, have to chase down some obsessive clot in a bunny suit hiding in the German forests, search all the more questionable bars in Ann Arbor, run the risks of what might happen to you at a luthier's convention, or confront the Dark Lord of Klosterneuburg in his lair, etc., etc., though it would doubtless be far more entertaining and rewarding, as well as get you a much better fiddle.   

Hah, I haven't hung out in a questionable bar in Ann Arbor for at least 20 years, so I reckon I'm off the list. And I reckon that most of the other fiddle pros in Ann Arbor would be as well. Not that any of us would be highly opposed to setting up an appointment in an environment which suits a wealthy and eager clients fancy.

 

But if I was in Germany, I would consider it worthwhile to go bunny hunting.

[Violadamore]

Is not having to visit a bar an advantage, or a disadvantage??

Depends on the bar in question.  In this case, quite possibly a disadvantage. 

 

 

I saw that Shar has a 'fine violin' section...with no prices listed!  LOL.

 

Well...it was just at that 'below' $10,000 price point that I was mainly wondering about.  That also seems to be a cut-off point, price wise, for consumers. 

The Bridges is shown in an ad on the original page you linked as going for 12K.  When you pull up all the professional grade violins by price (which doesn't show), it hits in about the middle of the pack, which gives one some idea.  The list contains, besides some antiques and vintage, several current individual makers, including some more Ann Arborites and a Darnton.

 

 

Hah, I haven't hung out in a questionable bar in Ann Arbor for at least 20 years

Your presence settles all the questions? 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Now wait a minute David.  I think I saw you in the Irish pub downtown several years ago...  Maybe doesn't count as questionable??  

 

I still hit the "Old Town" occasionally... That's about as questionable as I get.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

The Bridges is shown in an ad on the original page you linked as going for 12K.  When you pull up all the professional grade violins by price (which doesn't show), it hits in about the middle of the pack, which gives one some idea.  The list contains, besides some antiques and vintage, several current individual makers, including some more Ann Arborites and a Darnton.

 

For what it's worth, the only current Ann Arbor resident that I saw listed on that page (10K plus) is Ashot (he works at Shar).  The rest are past residents.  Todd used to work in the repair shop at the firm, but left for the East Coast many years ago.  I'm not sure where Celia ended up.

[David Burgess]

Hah, I haven't hung out in a questionable bar in Ann Arbor for at least 20 years, so I reckon I'm off the list.

 

 

 

Your presence settles all the questions? 

You mean my lack of presence?

[not telling]

People trust Shar (et al), that is also to say, I don't think players necessarily understand all of their options.  I guess the one other thing I would want to say is, please don't make assumptions about the skill level of makers/workshops selling cheap.  Or assumptions about the price having any meaning as far as the product.  It's all about appearances.  If someone seems to be comfortable selling at 25k and that being the firm price, no one, for some reason I don't understand, thinks perhaps the maker has a trust fund, comfortable retirement account income, inheritance, wife with a great income, etc., as is so often the case.  Really often.  In fact some of these guys go years without selling anything, but the price stays firm and the shop stays open, to everyone else's astonishment.  In reality very good makers are selling cheap.  Very cheap.  Anyone who buys a Jay Haide in this market gets what they deserve, but it still annoys me. Gee, why would no one talk about this or give a real answer?

[Craig Tucker]

Why choose a high-priced factory violin over a bench-made violin?

 

 

Well, depending on the maker (or the bench) and the factory, either one could be either; better, or satisfy the needs of the player better.

Just because something is " hand made" doesn't of necessity, make it better, or more desirable, than a well made factory product - does it?.

[MaestronetLurker]

I agree with Craig.  You really just need to play many instruments and see what comes out on top.  That being said, I don't stock any modern factory violins above $4,000 - $5,000 because it starts getting in to the price range of makers who are still trying to establish themselves.  I generally expect that a factory instrument will hold it's value with it's contemporaries while a violin attributed to an individual maker is more likely to gain value over time.  That's often part of the appeal of moving out of the factory violin market.

[Rue]

Other than convenience how would a "factory" instrument suit the player better?

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I like associating the art things I own with the person who created them.  You can't do that with a factory produced item regardless of its quality.

[Conor Russell]

Many players have really very little education when it comes to the instrument itself. When they are choosing a violin they need reassurance that they're choosing well, and given two otherwise equally attractive instruments to choose from, they will often take the one with the bigger price tag. The reality is that they are expected to pay a certain amount for the quality they want - nothing less will be good enough - and the higher price offers the reassurance they need.

 

Prices vary enormously between makers, depending on their quality, self confidence, location, exposure, How well they sell themselves, and of course how in or out of fashion they are. I know makers whose struggle to sell work that is often far more interesting than makers who charge two and three times their price. 

 

The ability to sell makes the money. Without it, even the most talented maker will struggle. It's just the way of the world.

[Violadamore]

I like associating the art things I own with the person who created them.  You can't do that with a factory produced item regardless of its quality.

Now we're progressing.  The fiddles I treasure and hang on to, besides suiting me as a player. show some evidence of their maker's individuality, and of the painstaking art carved into them.  "So what of your 'rubbish?'" someone might ask.  I could deflect that with some reference to them all being ultimately handmade, but the honest answer is "I made those mine when I fixed them and made them sing again!!"

 

 

Other than convenience how would a "factory" instrument suit the player better?

IMHO, with reference to modern mass-market fiddles, convenience (including price) is the only real way they can.

 

 

Many players have really very little education when it comes to the instrument itself. When they are choosing a violin they need reassurance that they're choosing well, and given two otherwise equally attractive instruments to choose from, they will often take the one with the bigger price tag. The reality is that they are expected to pay a certain amount for the quality they want - nothing less will be good enough - and the higher price offers the reassurance they need.

Simple truth.