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TedN

Good quality hide glue

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Daryl, I live in Ireland and buy glue from Germany and England. 
Ted likely doesn't live in Syria Afghanistan Uzbekistan or outer Mongolia.  B) 

The correct type and usage of hide glue is more likely gonna be a factor. 
Some places sell 'technical gelatin', not what we'd use often. 

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Daryl, I live in Ireland and buy glue from Germany and England. 
Ted likely doesn't live in Syria Afghanistan Uzbekistan or outer Mongolia.   B)

 

In the US it's easy to order Milligan and Higgins 192 gram high clarity glue in small quantities. That's what I would suggest if he lives in the US but it's not a very useful suggestion if he lives in Europe, or even Canada.

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I also use Bjorn 315 high clarity though I'm not sure if a high bloom strength is necessary. I've used the M&H 192 high clarity in the distant past and had no issues. I'm curious to try it again and do some comparing and testing.

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I also use Bjorn 315 high clarity though I'm not sure if a high bloom strength is necessary. I've used the M&H 192 high clarity in the distant past and had no issues. I'm curious to try it again and do some comparing and testing.

Daryl,

I tend to agree with about these two glues. It's a matter of how well you prepare and apply them. I continue using the Bjorn 315 because I bought a lot of it. Moreover, it works for me.

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Someone mentioned technical gelatin recently. I took a sachet of cooking gelatin out to the workshop just for fun. Chrystal clear, and that stuff is sticky! I wouldn't use it for glue, but I'm not sure why not.

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Someone mentioned technical gelatin recently. I took a sachet of cooking gelatin out to the workshop just for fun. Chrystal clear, and that stuff is sticky! I wouldn't use it for glue, but I'm not sure why not.

 

Gelatine has much shorter protein chains because it's produced at higher temps. I.e. it is brittle. The short chains make it sticky. This is why abrasive manufacturer get the best hide glue. :) Longest chains. That's expensive.

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Gelatine has much shorter protein chains because it's produced at higher temps. I.e. it is brittle. The short chains make it sticky. This is why abrasive manufacturer get the best hide glue. :) Longest chains. That's expensive.

 

We're talking "technical gelatin", correct?  The stuff that guilders like to use.  Has a faster tack and burnishes well.  Please explain the rest?

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Someone mentioned technical gelatin recently. I took a sachet of cooking gelatin out to the workshop just for fun. Chrystal clear, and that stuff is sticky! I wouldn't use it for glue, but I'm not sure why not.

 

 

We're talking "technical gelatin", correct?  The stuff that guilders like to use.  Has a faster tack and burnishes well.  Please explain the rest?

 

No, I was talking about Conor's "cooking gelatin". Cooking gelatin is made from bone. Technical gelatin is made from ...lots of things, pig skin and hooves being a large part. The commonality is that both are being extracted by boiling under pressure around 140C ( ! ) instead of the 55C or so for a top quality abrasive grade hide glue. Gelatins have short protein chains and that makes them brittle but gives them high tack. They can have the same Bloom strength as normal glue . In essence, a top grade ( 1st wash ) of hide glue is highly shock resistant because has the longest protein chains. In subsequent washes they get shorter and the shock resistance becomes less. The longer the chains , the more elastic the glue and the less affected by moisture. I really don't know if the top grade could be used for violins because in my experiments it simply refuses to shatter - it behaves like some sort of very hard plastic.

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No, I was talking about Conor's "cooking gelatin". Cooking gelatin is made from bone. Technical gelatin is made from ...lots of things, pig skin and hooves being a large part. The commonality is that both are being extracted by boiling under pressure around 140C ( ! ) instead of the 55C or so for a top quality abrasive grade hide glue. Gelatins have short protein chains and that makes them brittle but gives them high tack. They can have the same Bloom strength as normal glue . In essence, a top grade ( 1st wash ) of hide glue is highly shock resistant because has the longest protein chains. In subsequent washes they get shorter and the shock resistance becomes less. The longer the chains , the more elastic the glue and the less affected by moisture. I really don't know if the top grade could be used for violins because in my experiments it simply refuses to shatter - it behaves like some sort of very hard plastic.

 

 

OK Carl...  one more step back please?  What is an "abrasive grade hide glue".  I'm out of my element with that term and am having difficulty cross referencing it, though I did find a vague reference to abrasives on the M & H site.

 

BTW: According to Bjorn, a standard glue extraction starts at 110 to 120 degrees F and increases by 25 F for 3 or 4 courses... 4 courses equals a top temperature of roughly 100C.  Sounds like what you're speaking of is a in a slow cooker in comparison.

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OK Carl...  one more step back please?  What is an "abrasive grade hide glue".  I'm out of my element with that term and am having difficulty cross referencing it.

 

BTW: According to Bjorn, a standard glue extraction starts at 110 to 120 degrees F and increases by 25 F for 3 or 4 courses... which equals a top temperature of roughly 100C.  Sounds like what you're speaking of is a in a slow cooker in comparison.

 

The "abrasive grade" is the top quality of hide glue used in the manufacturing of certain abrasives. The 120F Bjorn starts extraction is 49C - less than my technical doc for another brand. That first extraction would be the absolute best but inherently very expensive and would be what is supplied to certain abrasive manufacturers for certain abrasives. It clearly seems that your people make a better quality than my people. :)  By 5C.  I've seen some figures ( which I do not trust ) giving tensile strength for this glue around 1000Kg per square cm. That's enormous compared with the usual 250-300Kg/sqcm. 

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OK...  Carl... so where do I find more information concerning this grade glue and it's actual application... and how that information applies/correlates to woodworking bonds?

 

I did find some basic information, like https://books.google.com/books?id=VwvpBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=hide+glue+in+abrasive+industry&source=bl&ots=JmOpc2bQOS&sig=zUlwZ-t3MdSt24ZdWtAtD20dUMc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFpcaEspHKAhVM6iYKHVDCCK8Q6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=hide%20glue%20in%20abrasive%20industry&f=false

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OK...  Carl... so where do I find more information concerning this grade glue and it's actual application... and how that information applies/correlates to woodworking bonds?

 

I did find some basic information, like https://books.google.com/books?id=VwvpBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=hide+glue+in+abrasive+industry&source=bl&ots=JmOpc2bQOS&sig=zUlwZ-t3MdSt24ZdWtAtD20dUMc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFpcaEspHKAhVM6iYKHVDCCK8Q6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=hide%20glue%20in%20abrasive%20industry&f=false

 

I couldn't say.

 

I see you found a nice book I must get myself, too. :)   I know it's used to make certain coated abrasives and to make certain wood laminates. That's where they pick up a problem with wood wetability and that's why they slightly abrade the joining faces to increase it. My tests, which were many, showed that "gluings" of 20 mm thick strips ( cello plate ? ) had probems due to the glue not wetting well. A very slight abrasion fixed this. Maybe you could ask Bjorn to dry a couple of liters of "first extraction" for you - I'm sure they'll be glad to oblige. The interesting thing, which I did not come around to test yet, is that a better glue will inherently be able to take more water and that means it'll pull a joint tighter. I have no clue if that matters or not in violin making. I am pretty sure that the inherent moisture resistance might help in humid climates. 

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OK...  Carl... so where do I find more information concerning this grade glue and it's actual application... and how that information applies/correlates to woodworking bonds?

 

I did find some basic information, like https://books.google.com/books?id=VwvpBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=hide+glue+in+abrasive+industry&source=bl&ots=JmOpc2bQOS&sig=zUlwZ-t3MdSt24ZdWtAtD20dUMc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFpcaEspHKAhVM6iYKHVDCCK8Q6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=hide%20glue%20in%20abrasive%20industry&f=false

Hi Jeffrey,

I've found the following paper to be a good, technical resource: http://www.connect.ecuad.ca/~vsager/Fndt%20150%20Spring%2012%20-2/index.html

Perhaps you've already came across it. There is mention of hide glue's various applications, where "adhesives" is mentioned but MPS and Bloom strengths are omitted, whereas all other applications have the two values given. It also mentions "modifying hide glue", which I have a feeling may be what is used in "adhesives":

"Modifying Hide Glue

Animal glue in its raw form is not suitable for many of its applications. For example, it is much too brittle for use in bookbinding; therefore a plasticizer, such as glycerin, or a less expensive substitute such as sorbitol, often combined with glycols and tackifiers, are added to improve elasticity and resilience. These so-called flexible glues are usually prepared from high quality grades of hide glue, with the ratio of plasticizer(s) to dry glue controlling the degree of flexibility that is imparted. In addition, glue, being an organic material, is susceptible to mold; consequently preservatives, such as beta naphthol, or the safer phenols, e.g., p-phenyl phenol, are added to prevent mold and bacterial growth. Deodorants, such as terpinol, are also employed in commercial glues."

DGSR☺

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Thanks all, I just picked up some Bjorn.

 

My glue has a really small working time and gets gummed up quick. Can be really annoying when closing the box.

 

I tried Caravan, but I get these long stringy threads from the brush, which get all over the instrument.

 

I used to use Behln, but their batches are inconsistent. I had a REALLY good can a few years ago. It was light in color. Almost a whitish color. Then I used it up, ordered a new can, and it's totally different. It's an orange color and goopy.

Hopefully Bjorn will do the trick.

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It's good to order large quantities (why not, it's cheap) so that once you get something you like, and have learned the working properties of that particular glue, you're set for a long time.

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Thanks all, I just picked up some Bjorn.

 

My glue has a really small working time and gets gummed up quick. Can be really annoying when closing the box.

 

I tried Caravan, but I get these long stringy threads from the brush, which get all over the instrument.

 

I used to use Behln, but their batches are inconsistent. I had a REALLY good can a few years ago. It was light in color. Almost a whitish color. Then I used it up, ordered a new can, and it's totally different. It's an orange color and goopy.

Hopefully Bjorn will do the trick.

I had similar experiences. I ordered 10 pounds from Bjorn. I store this in an air-tight container that has a couple of moisture-absorbing packets to keep the glue perfectly dry. This is probably unnecessary. I bought  #315 high clarity, and still am going through it for over 8 years! I rarely open this large storage container because I keep a working supply in a jar by my work bench.

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