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Advocatus Diaboli

Strad (and other) models database?

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See my P.S.

I'll add some drawing tutorial material tomorrow.

This is exactly how it's done, except drawing is done clockwise, by convention, and his lines don't match the raster image well.

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Here are three images of the P anchor points, and the Betts Scroll anchor points, one with the raster image beneath.  Image courtesy of Library of Congress.

post-35343-0-37572700-1458851502_thumb.jpg

post-35343-0-01460700-1458851512_thumb.jpg

post-35343-0-86751000-1458851522_thumb.jpg

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So, exercise: load the full Betts image into Illustrator, and starting with the silverpoint drawing, use those control point locations to duplicate the drawing using the pen tool.

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I have Illustrator 5.1 and from your first suggestion I tried auto-trace (actually live trace) and it does take a bit of time based on the initial resolution of the image.  I can see now why I a faster cpu + ram is necessary for image manipulation.   I will take a break from making sawdust to try and learn just enough to make my own templates of scrolls. corners, ... etc.   I also presume that the ruler comes in handy to measure the image and scale it appropriately so it prints out properly.

 

thanks for the specific tutorials

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If you look at the form image, you can see rectangles highlighted light blue/cyan.  Those are L x W plus a center line.  So, for example, when Sacconi says the PG is 34,8 x 16,1 x 20 x 10,3 cm, make the rectangles 348 x 161mm, 348 x 200mm and 348 x 103mm and center them horizontally and vertically.  Then fit your PG form image to those.

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That is a good thing that people start to study the forms using good tools. To take outlines the vector drawing tool which exist in many software traditionally photoshop and illustrator do the job easely (however needs some practice) but these softwares are very expensive now and I strongly advise to switch on  much more affordable softwares like Affinity Designer, Pixelmator, Affinity Photo as well for Autocad which can be replaced by Draftsight which offer (for free) the same possibilities. Furthemore, switch to these new softwares when you are use to classical previous softwares is easy because they use mostly the same keyboard shortcut.
Speaking of the Strad forms outlines , the most accurate sources awaillable (because Addy do not inform us about the origine of his own source) until now are definitely the scans than I published 10 years ago but since these posters are sold out for (there is a plan to re-print this year) their outlines can  be download directly from the traite de lutherie web site (english version www.traitedelutherie.com).

I wrote that for different reasons among them the fact that most of these forms or not flat at all, the plate being strongly twisted (several mm) it remains impossible until now, to give a more accurate measurements of these forms that the ones I give.
The good understanding of the connexion existing between a form with all its distortions and the violins made from it is a hard job who makes you cautious in the process of the "re-building" a geometrical interpretation. Actually keeping the idea of a more or less 0.5 mm a perfect match doesn't exist none real instrument or any geometrical reconstruction. So, over this limit all becomes a question of interpretation and ...experience.
Draw a form with a divider, make it with an hand saw and a rasp then compare the result with the project then make the instrument (without the help of any electricity devices obviously) then do the the same, compare the result with the project, will be the beginning of your experience :).

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Hello, M. Denis!

 

If I had known about your downloads, I might have saved myself a lot of time.  :lol:

 

Active links:

http://www.traitedelutherie.com/

http://kigiri.free.fr/tdl/eng/page22/page22.html

 

I hope people will buy your book, and draft symmetrical forms for themselves.  My purpose with this project was to record the Stradivari forms as accurately as possible. 

 

Regarding the Andrea Guarneri form on paper that I posted, from the Fiorini Collection, do you think this is his "large" i.e. wide pattern violin, or maybe a small viola?

 

Lastly, have you any thoughts on the mathematical construction of the arches? 

 

And thank you for the software recommendations.  :)

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Roger Hargrave, in his Working Methods of Guarneri del Gesù, says Andrea Guarneri had a small and a large pattern, the large being noticeably wider than the small. The pattern from the Fiorini-Stradivari collection seems to fit that description, but I don't know if, in fact, it is the large pattern. I will compare it with your pattern when I get a chance.

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Thanks, Peter.  :)

 

Here is an "update" of the first Stainer scroll, with more templates.  I checked them using a band-sawn and squared-up neck block.  I know Roger says square heels are wrong, but this Stainer has a square heel.  It can be altered using a compass, if you don't want to be square.  Straighten the taper of the pegbox with a plane, using photos for reference.

 

 

post-35343-0-71255600-1459362241_thumb.jpg

Stainer Scroll Pattern Update-2 Letter.pdf

Stainer Scroll Pattern Update-2 A4.pdf

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Jacob Stainer 1645 inner rib line, from CT Scan near the back.  Then a comparison of the 1645, 1661, and 1668, plus a symmetrical outline based on the 1668. 

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Jacob Stainer 1645 A3.pdf

Jacob Stainer 1645 Tabloid.pdf

Jacob Stainer 1645 Letter-1.pdf

Jacob Stainer 1645 Letter-2.pdf

Jacob Stainer 1645 A4-1.pdf

Jacob Stainer 1645 A4-2.pdf

post-35343-0-08231000-1459454756_thumb.jpg

Jacob Stainer Comparison A3.pdf

Jacob Stainer Comparison Tabloid.pdf

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Dear Francois,

 

thanks for sharing your findings about the Andrea Guarneri rib outlines matching on the small Andrea Amati pattern! What is the source of the Andrea Amati form?

 

Bests,

Philip

Dear Addie,

 

All the ribs outlines of the violin made by Andrea I have show a rather good match with the little pattern of Andrea Amati (see attached file)

I have no idea about the fiorini doc

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Since the Guadagnini was such a popular download, here is the neck and scroll.  The pegbox is quite small, and the nut thin.  I've added a dashed line for adding length for a standard nut.  The other little grey line is if you want to take away from the pegbox.

post-35343-0-03776200-1459910479_thumb.jpg

GB Guadagnini Scroll 1752 Letter.pdf

GB Guadagnini Scroll 1752 A4.pdf

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Dear Francois,

 

thanks for sharing your findings about the Andrea Guarneri rib outlines matching on the small Andrea Amati pattern! What is the source of the Andrea Amati form?

 

Bests,

Philip

Dear Phillip,

The inner form superimposed to the Andrea Amati is the theoretical reconstruction that I have proposed in my book.

Up to now , I'm acquainted two differents forms attributed to Andrea Amati matching the little and the long pattern but....but the reality is more fun because I know a least one "long little pattern" I mean, a violin having the same form of the little pattern with the length of a long one.

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Thank you, Francois, I understand!

 

I do like to speculate on forms used by comparing outlines of violins with tracings of the forms myself. My focus is mainly on Strad, but of course, it is most intriguing to find connections across the classical Cremonese school like the one you mentioned between Andrea Guarneri and Andrea Amati -a direct line with two generations in between.

 

When comparing some of Stradivari's forms with the Alard outline, I found that the M/B (MS1) is possibly an acceptable match. A second maybe even more speculative hypothesis came up, when I compared the outline of the 1686 "Amatise" Strad with the tracings of the forms: that the P(B) (MS6) is cut down in the width of the lower bout - all the rest fits so well.

 

Any thought on these two observations?

 

Bests,

Philip

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Thank you, Francois, I understand!

 

I do like to speculate on forms used by comparing outlines of violins with tracings of the forms myself. My focus is mainly on Strad, but of course, it is most intriguing to find connections across the classical Cremonese school like the one you mentioned between Andrea Guarneri and Andrea Amati -a direct line with two generations in between.

 

When comparing some of Stradivari's forms with the Alard outline, I found that the M/B (MS1) is possibly an acceptable match. A second maybe even more speculative hypothesis came up, when I compared the outline of the 1686 "Amatise" Strad with the tracings of the forms: that the P( B) (MS6) is cut down in the width of the lower bout - all the rest fits so well.

 

Any thought on these two observations?

 

Bests,

Philip

The Cremonese golden age  is also the end of corpus of craft traditions rooted in the Middle Ages (mainly those of the XIV and XV century). Measures systems, formats, drawings technics... nothing is really invented during the seventeenth centuries. At that time, it 's only a question of more or less minor adjustments made ... or not made empirically. This last point is the whole issue that bothers us. How was made those, sometime minor, adjustments . As you note, some forms of violin were cut down (B, P / B) others could have been simply duplicated from another (MS 21 from MS44). Anyway nothing crucial (in this particular topic) is invented during this period and our understanding ot the process is complex to decrypt because it is obvious that several types of practices coexisted.

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