Strad (and other) models database?

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Hello all,

 

There was a mention in a different thread about teaming together to make a database of sorts about which Strad violins were made on which molds (as best as we can discern).  If anyone wants to pitch in, that would be great.  Make sure you have access to either scans of the Strad molds, or Addie's outline drawings.

 

-D

[Addie]

I'll post stuff when I get a chance. In the meantime, the Muratov mould images open full size in Adobe Illustrator. Also I think my G mould drawing is 4mm too long... I'll double check that.

Off the top of my head, the Soil is a G?

Betts is P, not PG?

I seem to recall there was a recent discussion of the S1 violins?

Happy New Year!

[pbelin]

Pg is fuller in the bottom corners (flatter curve) , and if I'm right it uses the same measure for f-hole placement, leading to bottom holes wider apart, like the messiah.

[Davide Sora]

Off the top of my head, the Soil is a G?

Betts is P, not PG?

I seem to recall there was a recent discussion of the S1 violins?

 

IMO : Soil G form,  Betts P form (I am very convinced)

 

What are S1 violins?

[Davide Sora]

(Quote pbelin)

P is fairly easy to recognise for one.
Betts, Dornröschen, gibson-huberman, and so on...
The difference between p and pg is mostly the bottom corners I find, pg bottom corners are a bit flatter (bottom bout, not c.) the ffs are a bit wider apart on pg, I think mostly because of this corner difference.

 

I copied and pasted this from another thread, because it is an observation with which I agree and it seems appropriate for this thread.

This also applies to the G form, very similar to the PG.

 

 

[~ Ben Conover]

Q, S form and T violin forms, he used many forms... 
The Q form was (probably) used for his Cipriani Potter 7/8ths
S form is long pattern very skinny, as is T. 


Also, what's to say that his ribs were tight on the moulds ? 
It's likely there were gaps, especially near the C bout corners.
So how would you tell exactly which violins were made on which forms....
Well it's obvious with the Tuscan and Archinto violas, since there's one form that fits them.
The small violins fit the small forms etc, and his Cellos are fewer so easier there. 
Not at all obvious for many though, and if you did this 'database' would you think it
worth publishing ? If so, you could do it all yourself. lol. 
 
I photocopied all the Strad forms and made pricked working copies of them 20 years ago.
His forms are not very symetrical. 
 

[Michael_Molnar]

Suggestion: Keep It Simple Stupid! (KISS) 

 

Make a list of the Strad violin Name, Year, Form, Source of Designated Form.

 

You may even come up with some violins assigned more than one form, but having the sources cited helps to define which is authoritative - maybe.

[~ Ben Conover]

Publishing anything (apart from an internet research 'paper') that's really 'authoritative' 
and thus really interesting to the buyer / reader might be a challenge, not one I'd relish.   

I'd respect the findings were they wrenched painfully from your brain, and sold in paperback for $20. 

A collective resource is hard to publish effectively.  
Likely what you'd end up with here (MN) is a long list of jabs and hints, but that's ok too. 

You never know, some kind soul like Mike may have a book about it already. 
 

 

[Peter K-G]

Why bother with such list as all the other forms serve one purpose - making the G form show off as the greatest of them all.

 

 

ps.

Just listened to Akiko Suwanai playing Sibelius on TV - Some closeups on the Dolpin Stradivari, amazing sound and performance. It has a darker sound than the Soil, but somewhat same character. Wonder why it's so pale in places where it is worn.

[pbelin]

I'll post stuff when I get a chance. In the meantime, the Muratov mould images open full size in Adobe Illustrator. Also I think my G mould drawing is 4mm too long... I'll double check that.

Off the top of my head, the Soil is a G?

Betts is P, not PG?

I seem to recall there was a recent discussion of the S1 violins?

Happy New Year!

Would you be so kind to send a link to this, if it is available online?

Thank you

Edit:Google just sent me there :-)

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Why bother with such list as all the other forms serve one purpose - making the G form show off as the greatest of them all.

 

G.jpg

 

ps.

Just listened to Akiko Suwanai playing Sibelius on TV - Some closeups on the Dolpin Stradivari, amazing sound and performance. It has a darker sound than the Soil, but somewhat same character. Wonder why it's so pale in places where it is worn.

 

Hi Peter. The Dolphin is from the P form. Great fiddle!

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Why bother with such list as all the other forms serve one purpose - making the G form show off as the greatest of them all.

 

G.jpg

 

ps.

Just listened to Akiko Suwanai playing Sibelius on TV - Some closeups on the Dolpin Stradivari, amazing sound and performance. It has a darker sound than the Soil, but somewhat same character. Wonder why it's so pale in places where it is worn.

 

This is exactly the reason such a database could be helpful for makers; so this sort of misinformation isn't spread.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Addie, would you want to work on the 1600s?  I've started on 1700s.

[Addie]

Addie, would you want to work on the 1600s?  I've started on 1700s.

I was planning on making quality drawings of the moulds, that people could download.  I don't have all of them though, so if anyone has images and dimensions they want to PM me...

 

After that I was going to tackle the Strads in the 1987 and four centuries books, and also see how the moulds compare to the Amatis.  I also have a few Ceruti mould images, but I'm not sure I have sizes for those.  I have a ton of poorly sorted information, so more things may emerge.  One thing that comes to mind is the NMM paper plate outline.  It would be nice to have some answers on that.

 

BTW, I previously overlaid the MB on a Stainer, and it is a very good match, except Stainer moved the lower corners.

[Davide Sora]

I was planning on making quality drawings of the moulds, that people could download.  I don't have all of them though, so if anyone has images and dimensions they want to PM me...

 

After that I was going to tackle the Strads in the 1987 and four centuries books, and also see how the moulds compare to the Amatis.  I also have a few Ceruti mould images, but I'm not sure I have sizes for those.  I have a ton of poorly sorted information, so more things may emerge.  One thing that comes to mind is the NMM paper plate outline.  It would be nice to have some answers on that.

 

BTW, I previously overlaid the MB on a Stainer, and it is a very good match, except Stainer moved the lower corners.

 

If you already do not have them, you can add to your collection the two forms attributed to Bergonzi that are in the museum of Cremona, very well described, illustrated and measured by Chris Reuning in an article in the exhibition catalog of 2010 on Carlo Bergonzi.

 

http://www.cremonabooks.com/shop_dettaglio.php?id=304

 

Just to make you work a little more.......

[Peter K-G]

This is exactly the reason such a database could be helpful for makers; so this sort of misinformation isn't spread.

 

So the G form isn't the fairest of them all 

If not I'm sorry for spreading misinformation.

[Peter K-G]

Hi Peter. The Dolphin is from the P form. Great fiddle!

 

Thanks!

It was really amazing, the audience didn't want to stop applauding, they had her come out on the stage 4-5 times to play more, but they had to move on with Sibelius symphonies.

 

Isn't The Dolphin kind of a sister violin to The Soil, remember having seen images of their backs.

[Peter K-G]

Is there some drawing (Addie?) of G, P, PG moulds on top of each other. 

[Addie]

Is there some drawing (Addie?) of G, P, PG moulds on top of each other.

Pollens has a composite/overlay of all the moulds in his Stradivari book. You can preview it at Google Books.

[Michael_Molnar]

I want to warn you that you are making this idea into a major task. All I would like to see is an Excel spreadsheet citing the form data. That alone is a major chore if done correctly and diligently. You can try this first before venturing to expand it.

 

K.I.S.S.

[Janito]

So the G form isn't the fairest of them all 

 

I wish it were only the mould.

[Berl Mendenhall]

addie, I think this is a very good idea.  I've often wondered what model went with what fiddle.  I've always thought, and I may be wrong that the PG was the most widely used mold.  I believe it was one of his earliest (1680's ?) and he used right through until the end of his career.  I know he used the G and P also but I thought the PG was the go to mold.  Am I wrong about this?  Also I've thought "why".  Why use several different unless he was trying to cater to different customers ( large frame, small frame people ) who knows.  He was a business man and an experimenter.  Seems he was always looking for something better.  I believe Roger wrote that the Guarneri's all used the same shape mold.  From Andrea to del Gesu?  I may be remembering that wrong?

[Davide Sora]

 I've always thought, and I may be wrong that the PG was the most widely used mold.  I believe it was one of his earliest (1680's ?) and he used right through until the end of his career.  I know he used the G and P also but I thought the PG was the go to mold.  Am I wrong about this?

 

IMO forms P and PG are the oldest of larger size and probably also the most representative of the golden period of Stradivari if not of all his career .

In 1705 he remade another P and in 1708 (?) another PG by copying the old forms, calling them respectively P (dated 1705) and G (omitting the P of PG).

PG and G are quite similar and difficult to assign to this or that instrument, the only difference is often evident in the length of the back, which reaches 357/358mm with the G and usually does not exceed 356 mm with the PG.

Differences in the widths and in the curves are more difficult to interpret, because of the freedom with which the ribs were bent and the possible use of shims, although it is quite certain that the widths may not be far below those of the form.

For modern standard the G is a bit long regarding stop lenght and the PG (and the P) are a little better if you want the stop lenght be kept within 195/196 mm without doing strange things with blocks.

[Berl Mendenhall]

Thank you Davide.  the freedom with the rib garland does make it difficult to make out what is what sometimes.  I still wonder why though.  Little  like ground and varnish, we'll probably never know. 

[Davide Sora]

Thank you Davide.  the freedom with the rib garland does make it difficult to make out what is what sometimes.  I still wonder why though.  Little  like ground and varnish, we'll probably never know. 

 

You might have a greater correspondence with the forms if you have available the CT scans at the level of the ribs of all violins, because I'm sure that's not always true that the ribs were bent badly and perhaps you may find some characteristics common to the forms  with a thorough analysis at that level.

But complicating things in analyzing back and top outlines is the fact that the edges do not follow exactly the line of the ribs, although even here you can find a trend for each form, i.e. the edge overhang of upper C bout curve approaching the corner is almost always let wider for compensate the tighter curve of ribs, in the G form violins.

 

(sorry for the intricacy of the speech, I do not know if it is understandable, but I tried...... )

(maybe someone will have fun reading it )