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Nick Allen

Sprung Joint Plates?

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Not only that, but it is preferable to take the finished plate to the village priest to have it blessed against the possibility of unclean spirits passing through the joint! =P

...the only spirits allowed in my workshop are single malt.....

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I think the infantesimal gap that Davide specifies is what is generally meant by a gap in the finished glue joint in this context. You can't see it unless you hold a precision straight edge against one side and shine a bright light behind it, and even then it's minuscule. That seems to be pretty prevalent, however many people don't seem to consider it to be a gap. I've heard a couple folks say things along the lines of "dead flat is actually just slightly cupped." When it comes to jointery.

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Surely you can do that way, if Roger says this......, and certainly many ancient instruments are very random from this point of view.

But.........I foresee many annoying problems of slipping, if you use clamps... <_<

Furthermore, have the joint at 90 ° allows to use it as a reference for symmetry both outside and inside for such things as the placement of F holes, bassbar, bridge etc., no big deal but certainly very practical.

The problems of slipping in any case are not to be underestimated, I make at 90 ° also the exterior, where lean clamps.

Roger showed sometimes ago how bad planes can be, even new ones. I don't know if he join plates this way. I have always done it like this because I thought that this was the only way to do it (before Internet and MN). When I started making violins I had no tools so I made them. Joined plates with a very old stanley 102.

Next time you join a plate maybe you could try the method as a first step, I think you will find out that it's pretty much 90 deg. because it's dificult to mess it up with a big tilt.

In any case I have a long way to your standard! I admire your work and have learned a lot from your Youtube channel.

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Peter, excellent photos and great value plane, is the brass adjuster knob easy to throw ?

Say that because I have a nice block plane by them that's a tad stiff, perhaps it just needs more using.

Thinking of getting one of those Dictum joiner planes actually. :-)

Thanks, It is a fantastic plane, the adjuster knob is annoying, difficult to reach and stiff!

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Peter, this is good value. 

Bit small for centre joints but perhaps good for trimming those linings.

 http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng-No.-101-Small-Block-Plane.html

Ben, I can't recall if it was you or someone else, or even if it was in this thread, but someone mentioned Quangsheng planes and so I looked them up specifically to see if they made a tiny block plane like that! I can't seem to find them in the US though, so I may have to pony up for the Lie Nielsen...

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'Pony up' as you wish, it's just a nice and more affordable small plane. :-)

The other thread you may be referring to was for 'hand plane recommendations'
where Melvin ended up buying and using a Quangsheng jointer, he liked it.

After Peter says the screw mechanism (maybe too coarse a thread) on his Dick jointer is stiff
think I'll save for a Kunz or other jointer. Clifton would be my preference though.


 
 

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@ Ben Conover with reference to the photo posted in post #6 : Hey Ben, viewed from so far away and with that quality of the photograph all the joints are perfect :rolleyes: :D :D

 

 

D. Sora, my dslr camera is broken hence the rubbish cell phone snap. 

Even if you got your face 2 inches from the Cello back you'd not see the joint.

Making things is more important to me than the PR side of it. 

Each to their own. 

You mention glue type....rabbit sin or bone for centre joint ?

 

I thought it was clear that mine was just a joke, was not at all my intention to offend your susceptibility.

 

Regard to the glue, I do not know exactly what it is mine, but I think it's bones.

Very clear Japanese glue in small pearls, certainly not rabbit skin.

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That Quangsheng looks delicious. I'm using a Stanley bailey block plane clone from somewhere around the turn of the century. I have removed all of the adjusting mechanisms and simply use my small tack hammer to adjust it. Works like a charm and takes like 2.5 seconds to adjust lol. I just eyeball the joint against the glow of my TV at night to check for light. I can't close the maple gap with my hands, but I can close the spruce gap with my hands, so I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the joint is close enough to be considered ready for glue.

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Roger showed sometimes ago how bad planes can be, even new ones. I don't know if he join plates this way. I have always done it like this because I thought that this was the only way to do it (before Internet and MN). When I started making violins I had no tools so I made them. Joined plates with a very old stanley 102.

Next time you join a plate maybe you could try the method as a first step, I think you will find out that it's pretty much 90 deg. because it's dificult to mess it up with a big tilt.

In any case I have a long way to your standard! I admire your work and have learned a lot from your Youtube channel.

 

Your system is fine, I used it for a while but then I saw that I was better off with separate pieces and smaller plane, but it's just me.

My only concern was the inclination that I think is very important that it is at 90 ° otherwise the pieces slip, because the gluing surface is not perpendicular to clamps pressure.

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That Quangsheng looks delicious. I'm using a Stanley bailey block plane clone from somewhere around the turn of the century. I have removed all of the adjusting mechanisms and simply use my small tack hammer to adjust it. Works like a charm and takes like 2.5 seconds to adjust lol. I just eyeball the joint against the glow of my TV at night to check for light. I can't close the maple gap with my hands, but I can close the spruce gap with my hands, so I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the joint is close enough to be considered ready for glue.

 

Are you going to clamp or not ? :)

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Your system is fine, I used it for a while but then I saw that I was better off with separate pieces and smaller plane, but it's just me.

My only concern was the inclination that I think is very important that it is at 90 ° otherwise the pieces slip, because the gluing surface is not perpendicular to clamps pressure.

 

Davide, did I read your previous message right? you use a block plane for the edges?

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Davide, did I read your previous message right? you use a block plane for the edges?

 

If by "edges" you mean the gluing surfaces of the joint, yes, I use a Stanley 9 1/2 block plane with rectified sole (by myself).

Of course I prepare the two pieces with a bigger plane (n.7), but the latest precision shots are with the 9 1/2.

I have a Japanese blade (Samurai) that I keep just for this.

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I did use the block plane for the whole thing more or less. I used my Stanley #5 for the rough work, and then hit it up with the little block plane. And yes Carl, I do plan on clamping it. I have a sweet set of pipe clamps lying around that I have been wanting to warm up.

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I agree with Nathan and Davide.  But I think it's important to know that we are not talking about a real gap.  It's barely a hairline through the centre of the length of the joint.  I do this by putting more pressure on the plane as I pass the centre of the plate and relaxing the pressure at the ends.  The goal is to ensure that the ends fit tightly and that when you apply glue, the joint doesn't bow in the wrong direction, i.e gaps at the ends of the joint.  I always size my joints too and then a single pass with a plane when dry is enough to re-fit the joint.  It works perfectly.  And let's face it, there is always more than one way to do pretty much everything we all do.  Whatever works for you is the best way.

 

Stephen

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So I'm all over the place with this joint. I wasn't happy with the finish of the joining surfaces, as I found out that there were hollows not lengthwise, but widthwise that were hiden whenever I would sight fit the battens. So, I took my trusty polished 2" thick marble sink cutout and glued some 120 grit to it, and got to work flattnening the edges. After about ten minutes they were laser accurate. I then scraped the surfaces to a finer finish. So at this juncture, they are dead flat and faced, but now I really want to put the spring back in the faces. A few light passes with the plane should do, eh? I really don't want the ends peeling up on me...

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 I just eyeball the joint against the glow of my TV at night to check for light. I can't close the maple gap with my hands, but I can close the spruce gap with my hands, so I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the joint is close enough to be considered ready for glue.

 

 

 And yes Carl, I do plan on clamping it. I have a sweet set of pipe clamps lying around that I have been wanting to warm up.

 

There was a while ago a very nice post by Craig Tucker with his setup for planing the edges properly. I think it's called a "shooting board". A few years ago I improvised something similar and worked wonderfully. It keeps the joining surface exactly 90 deg to the plate and one day you might find this to be important. You might not..   In it's simplest, all you need to make it is a table and a piece of plywood to bring the plate somewhere mid plane blade. I suggest you try it - it'll eliminate guess work right at the beginning.

But it does more than that - it ensures that the surface you are planing is not twisted because you can "close the light gap" 100% between two twisted surfaces. But they will rock. I tested this edge to edge gluing a lot for a different purpose and I found that once the two surfaces are right, it's basically foolproof whatever you chose to do i.e. rub or clamp. When I picked up problems it was either the glue being substandard / overly diluted or re-heated too many times or the kind of wood. The best quality glue is what an abrasives manufacturer gets. It's a high gel strength though and that means one needs to move quickly. As to the wood, some wood species do not wet well enough - they are a bit ( a lot ?? ) hydrophobic. Some spruces are. This needs a slightly different approach. Very doubtful you'll have this problem. 

 

One thing I have noticed is that when I missed the rubbing bit and I had to wash off and re-glue, the two edges would now rock. I wonder if the lightest scraping to make the two edge surfaces just a shade concave wouldn't help. I must try this one day. I remember reading about it in Michael Darnton's neck fitting chapter at violinmag.com

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So I'm all over the place with this joint. I wasn't happy with the finish of the joining surfaces, as I found out that there were hollows not lengthwise, but widthwise that were hiden whenever I would sight fit the battens. So, I took my trusty polished 2" thick marble sink cutout and glued some 120 grit to it, and got to work flattnening the edges. After about ten minutes they were laser accurate. I then scraped the surfaces to a finer finish. So at this juncture, they are dead flat and faced, but now I really want to put the spring back in the faces. A few light passes with the plane should do, eh? I really don't want the ends peeling up on me...

 

You'll need to plane it now. 120 grit is too rough for a good glue joint - you've cut too many fibers. If you insist on sandpaper then go now to 400-600 grit and do it the telescope mirror way. :)  Have a sheet of sandpaper shorter than the plate. By holding the middle of the plate more ( time / strokes ) over the sandpaper, you'll make a slight bow in it.

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So far .... What I Think I've learned or observed ... The gap , as it's referred to here is what could be a standard operating procedure for many materials and process. from timber frames to boat building, the idea of matting two surfaces by removing everything in the middle and then some is the best way to make a fit...WHY? because two touching points spread as far as possible are defacto stronger than one point in the middle, with leverage on either end.

That said we do need to reduce that gap to near zero ( personaly I think zero ,best)to achieve the full strength and visuals. I've tried all the methods above and then some/ broken quite a few for re do. ended up building a monster shooting board and strapping the new #7 to it and ...it rides like a 57 caddy , so fast and true it's almost like flying.

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Unless the wood is unstable, I'm guessing there is little difference in a joint planed with or without a (very) slight hollow.  I always use a plane.  I never sand or scrape.

 

In school, I was taught to cut a hollow in.  Later, I used both methods.  If I ware making today, I'd probably use a very slight hollow.  If I have a long joint to accomplish when I'm restoring, I use a very slight hollow.  If I'm replacing a fingerboard, I use a slight latitudinal hollow on both glue surfaces.  Helps lock things in place without gaps (they get sucked down) once the hot hide is applied and the wood does it's swelling thing.

 

I've always rubbed the plate joint initially.  Again, in school, no clamps.  Later, I've done both no clamps and a central clamp.

 

I prefer good high clarity hide glue for long joints.  I don't go to 315 gs, however, as I like a little time before the glue gels. Never had a problem with a joint when using 195 gs or slightly higher... but who knows... just been at this for nearing 35 years.  There's still time to be proved wrong.

 

What I'm getting at is that if you initially learned a "good" and proven technique, you'll often be more comfortable exploiting it... or a form of it.  Good techniques have advantages.  All the theory and debate in the world won't deliver a better joint. Competent woodworking will.

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