Magister varnish oil resin ratio

[Davide Sora]

Davide,

I have used similar synthetic pads (not Mirka).  Although its softness allows following texture better than the other things, it still hits the higher spots more strongly and will level the surface out to some degree.  It's not great on bare wood, as it will leave debris and perhaps catch the grain if you go against it.  Not a miracle product, but a tool with some different working characteristics.  It's worth having around, at least for me, primarily for use in varnish antiquing.

 

Thanks for reporting, I am interested only for the varnish (not antiquing ), for the wood I'm happy and steady with the traditional systems as scraper and asprella weed

[~ Ben Conover]

Thing is about all those modern products is that they are fixed, where Tripoli powder is loose.
Using the tripoli on an organic ground or varnish surface / layer there will be some small 
amount left on it, which is good. 
:-)

I used to use wet and dry working for Harris, it gave a very uniform manufactured look. 
He'd use that to finish his spirit varnish then put a coat of clear oil varnish over it to get the 
'lustre' the spirit varnish didn't have.....

Anyhow, I think simple is best.

[~ Ben Conover]

Back to 'magister oil to resin ratio', the fact that Magister use more oil is apparently mitigated by time
since the varnish thins with age (5 years according to Padding) and becomes easier to to polish with alcohol etc. 

[Davide Sora]

Micromesh is a great product, basically a sandpaper but with the support made of canvas.

This makes it very flexible, lasts a long time (I save the pieces for years) and can be used for lots of things, including the polishing of fingerboards, nuts and peg shafts.

I use it a lot on alcohol varnish, but has a tendency to level out a bit too much the texture and works best on very dry varnish.

For oil varnish, especially when they are still a bit soft, it should be used very carefully and I think there are systems that work better, I'm looking for a viable alternative, but the work it does is more than good and at the moment I go on with that.

I use 2400 grit (very coarse for varnish, good for level everything up), 3200 and 4000 grit (better, expecially when a bit worn).

Available up to 12000 grit, I think it was originally invented to polish glass.

 

Re-reading the book of Padding I noticed that he specifically does not recommend using the Micromesh, saying it can leave traces of silicone that can cause problems of adhesion with subsequent layers.

I would contradict this statement, as I have never experienced anything like that and I used the micromesh from about twenty years, although mostly on alcohol varnishes .

But I think adhesion problems would occour despite the varnish components.

[Guest]

For Davide

Would you like the 4 volume set of varnish making books I have for sale on the Luthier Exchange? They are the same books that Fred often posts from. I don't need the money and would be happy if they found a good home. I have volumes 1-5 in very good condition. I don't need extra copies. PM me an address and I'll send them to you.

[Davide Sora]

For Davide

Would you like the 4 volume set of varnish making books I have for sale on the Luthier Exchange? They are the same books that Fred often posts from. I don't need the money and would be happy if they found a good home. I have voulumes 1-5 in very good condition. PM me an address and I'll send them to you.

 

Thanks for your offer, I sent you a private message.

[Peter Lynch]

That's how I had interpreted reading the book, that is the total resin content, but it seemed so strange and unlikely that I decided to start this topic.

Please Peter, if there will be a reply from Helen please inform us, it will be greatly appreciated.

Received a reply from Helen who contacted the lab that did the analysis.  Here is her reply

 

Dear Peter,

I've had a reply from the Jägers.

They say (my translation from their German):

"The analysis of the varnish yielded an (estimated) proportion of resins. The main constituent of the resin, or resin mixture, is with high probability sandarac. A more exact verdict is not possible with FT-IR spectography."

Which is as I had understood it - so the less than 20% is the total resin content of the varnish, probably principally sandarac but possibly a mixture of sandarac and other resins. Hope this helps! (I hope my carefully husbanded stocks of Magister varnishes see me out!!)

Best wishes from Manchester UK,

[captainhook]

FT-IR is not known for good quantitative results, except in certain specialized applications. My experience was almost entirely qualitative with some specific ratio determinations using ATR. Some mixtures (probably including resins) can be almost impossible to analyze in detail. I would take that result with a whole shaker of salt.

[FredN]

I hope Davide or someone keeps the Protective and Decorative Coatings volumes among MN members. A lot of it is understandable with just a little  knowledge of chemistry.  

[Davide Sora]

 

Received a reply from Helen who contacted the lab that did the analysis.  Here is her reply

 

Dear Peter,

I've had a reply from the Jägers.

They say (my translation from their German):

"The analysis of the varnish yielded an (estimated) proportion of resins. The main constituent of the resin, or resin mixture, is with high probability sandarac. A more exact verdict is not possible with FT-IR spectography."

Which is as I had understood it - so the less than 20% is the total resin content of the varnish, probably principally sandarac but possibly a mixture of sandarac and other resins. Hope this helps! (I hope my carefully husbanded stocks of Magister varnishes see me out!!)

Best wishes from Manchester UK,

 

 

Thank you very much for reporting, this confirms what's writed in the book.

Clearly, because of the type of analysis, this should not be taken as conclusive, but perhaps only as an indication that these varnishes do not contain a lot of resin.

Surely not the 1:4 oil to resin (that is 20% oil) suggested by Greiner & Brandmair, but I can even hardly believe in this ratio.

[Davide Sora]

I hope Davide or someone keeps the Protective and Decorative Coatings volumes among MN members. A lot of it is understandable with just a little  knowledge of chemistry.  

 

I promise that I will do my best

[David Burgess]

Back to 'magister oil to resin ratio', the fact that Magister use more oil is apparently mitigated by time

since the varnish thins with age (5 years according to Padding) and becomes easier to to polish with alcohol etc. 

Any surface can be french polished, even if the surface is totally impervious to alcohol. A steel plate can be french polished.

 

And I'll take issue with an oil varnish thinning with 5 years of age (if that means that it loses bulk or film thickness). It could, if slow "solvent-drying" ingredients are incorporated, but doesn't necessarily need to.

 

An early step in the drying of a "drying oil" film is that it gains bulk, weight and volume. Lots of variables in how long this goes on.

[Davide Sora]

And I'll take issue with an oil varnish thinning with 5 years of age (if that means that it loses bulk or film thickness). It could, if slow "solvent-drying" ingredients are incorporated, but doesn't necessarily need to.

 

An early step in the drying of a "drying oil" film is that it gains bulk, weight and volume. Lots of variables in how long this goes on.

 

I agree, I tend to associate more thickness stability to oil varnishes on this aspect, or at least is what I expect from them.

Varnishes with alcool and essential oil will shrink a lot, this is one of the reasons why I try to limit as much as possible the use of solvents.

I tend to consider oil varnishes with an high solvent content  such as essence varnish, not real oil varnishes.

Otherwise also my alcohol varnish containing linoxyn would be considered an oil varnish, if you ignore the solvent content.

Do someone know of specific studies on these increases or decreases in weight of varnishes or linseed oil?

[Peter K-G]

I have one positive experience with Hammerl spirit varnish (varnished 1997). Thin, soft(polishable), transparent -- no change  for 19 years.

 

Another one (have no idea why) same year, same varnish - is fragile and brittle.

[~ Ben Conover]

Padding says his varnish doesn't cling to the seams, well I don't know how that's possible
because the oil varnish I've made does exactly that. 

Spirit varnish doesn't though, and to be honest I'm liking spirit varnish very much today.
No dust or drying issues, no build up in seams and corners, and you can lay it very thin
to build up a deep colour without obliterating the texture of the wood. 

[Addie]

I hope Davide or someone keeps the Protective and Decorative Coatings volumes among MN members. A lot of it is understandable with just a little  knowledge of chemistry.  

Protective and decorative coatings; paints, varnishes, lacquers, and inks. Prepared by a staff of specialists under the editorship of Joseph J. Mattiello.

 

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006663717

 

USA access only.  Volumes 1-3 only.

[Davide Sora]

Padding says his varnish doesn't cling to the seams, well I don't know how that's possible

because the oil varnish I've made does exactly that. 

Spirit varnish doesn't though, and to be honest I'm liking spirit varnish very much today.

No dust or drying issues, no build up in seams and corners, and you can lay it very thin

to build up a deep colour without obliterating the texture of the wood. 

 

Right, but the texture is different, more wood texture and less (or at least different) varnish texture.

I'm doing the reverse path, I think that the oil varnish is more versatile in terms of the variability of texture.

In my personal experience I think also that the color intensity in thin layers is greater  with oil varnish, not with alcohol varnish.

Surely weight is different, with equal intensity the oil varnish is lighter, because it takes a smaller amount.

One thing I've always noticed is that, under careful observation, the brush marks are always intuitable with alcohol varnish, even after intensive french polishing.

With oilvarnish they disappear completely, especially if you do not use brushes and solvents as I do.

But this relate to my systems only, I have not tried all the possibilities, perhaps not always the case.

[~ Ben Conover]

If applying a very thin film of oil varnish to a scroll how do you do that without a small brush.
Also, do you use madder lake or another pigment type. 

 

[Michael_Molnar]

I find that adding turpentine to cold varnish can lead to bubbles during brushing. I have noticed that if the diluted varnish is allowed to warm up or sit for a few days, the likelihood of bubbles diminishes. I guess the trick is to drive off the low temperature volatiles in turpentine. Varnish makers add the turpentine while the varnish is still hot. Again, I guess this drives off those volatiles.

[~ Ben Conover]

Good point mike, I'll put the small varnish jar on the heater before using it. 

For me, the major problem with oil varnish is trying to get it on really thin with enough 
pigment in it.  

[Michael_Molnar]

Some makers blend the pigment into linseed oil rather than the varnish. 

[joerobson]

Surely not the 1:4 oil to resin (that is 20% oil) suggested by Greiner & Brandmair, but I can even hardly believe in this ratio.

David,

I have been making this varnish for about 12 years as part of the Balsam Ground System.

 

I find that adding turpentine to cold varnish can lead to bubbles during brushing. I have noticed that if the diluted varnish is allowed to warm up or sit for a few days, the likelihood of bubbles diminishes.

Mike,

The issue with varnishes made using raw pine resin is that some of the components are not turpentine soluble, but they are miscible.  Allowing the materials, stirred together, to sit in a warm place for 24 hours should amalgamate all the components.

on we go,

Joe

[Davide Sora]

If applying a very thin film of oil varnish to a scroll how do you do that without a small brush.

Also, do you use madder lake or another pigment type. 

 

 

I must confess, I use a small brush for the scroll, but the brush technique for alcohol varnishes is another matter entirely.

I use madder lake pigment in my alcohol varnish, really difficult to use in thin layers without dulling, so I need a lot of coats at a very low concentration of pigments and a lot of touch up.

One reason that now makes me prefer the oil varnish, I'm tired of that slow process.....

[Davide Sora]

I find that adding turpentine to cold varnish can lead to bubbles during brushing. I have noticed that if the diluted varnish is allowed to warm up or sit for a few days, the likelihood of bubbles diminishes. I guess the trick is to drive off the low temperature volatiles in turpentine. Varnish makers add the turpentine while the varnish is still hot. Again, I guess this drives off those volatiles.

 

 

Good point mike, I'll put the small varnish jar on the heater before using it. 

For me, the major problem with oil varnish is trying to get it on really thin with enough 

pigment in it.  

 

Solvent = problems.....that's why I'm trying to refine a method to avoid them entirely, and I am convinced it can work.

 

I use madder rosinates and only a little bit of madder pigment (or cochineal) in oil varnish, very intense and trasparent in thin coats.

[Davide Sora]

David,

I have been making this varnish for about 12 years as part of the Balsam Ground System.

 

 

Of course 1:4 ratio is good for ground coats, what I find difficult to believe is that the top layers have this ratio, because in my tests always scratch white.

Do your top varnishes have this ratio? If so, do they scratch white?