Restoration of varnish on old instruments

[Húslař]

Hello!

 

I want to start topic about repairing of old violins varnishes.

 

Starting questions or what is the purpose of our discoursing:

 

French polish YES? NO?

 

Polishing grinding

 

Adding of own spirit varnish layer (or layers) on old surface

 

Propolis polish

 

Restorating of varnish on Stradivaris, Guarneris and another rare violins

 

Cleaning of colophony or another dirt with sandpaper and oil?

 

Super NIKCO

 

JOHA polish

 

Tripoli, Vienna chalk

 

and more...

 

 

Topic aim is to avoid destruction of old instruments as we can see it on much examples in museums.

 

Thank you in advance to everyone who will be involved!

[MANFIO]

Too many questions, and the answer is too many  no, no, no nos, with the exception of the one  "Restorating of varnish on Stradivaris, Guarneris and another rare violins",  that must be left to specialists.

 

In my opinion, the best polish/cleaner is that one the player NEVER USES.

I'll quote Charles Beare:

"The other problem with the polish that we and everybody else sell is that there is usually an oil in there somewhere. And an oil is not good news for the four joints that are commomly found in the purfling. If one of these comes loose, it will have catastrophic effects on the tone of the instrument, almost anywhere on a violin. Even if it does not make a buzz, it will have an effect on the volume and solidity of the tone. We are forever gluing the purfling at the top of the bass bar or at the botton under the chinrest, in order to cure tonal deficiencies, as well as shoulders and that sort of thing. But I mean that if oil gets in the purfling or into an old crack, it's going to be quite a while before you can get i out again."

 

"It`s not uncommon these days to see fine instruments with layer upon layer of grey/green discolouring French polish built up year after year as part of their regular overhaul, which far exceeds in thickness and hardness the original varnish which may still be seen underneath with the aid of a strong light. Most of the Stradivaris and Guarneris in the USA have this - and I once asked a leading American restorer, a good friend from the old Wurlitzer days, why he and his companions were giving the violins that were enstruted to them this patent leather look, "If I don`t do it, the customer won`t accept the job" was his reply. "They want it to shine all over; if there is a dull spot they bring it back and complain". Surely this is a case for re-educating these customers. I fear there are many in our trade, as well as the customers, who are unaware of the beauty of unplished Italian varnish, who don`t recognise it when they see it. It`s like fine wine, the taste comes with experience and is none the less valuable for that.

"Obviously the purer (the varnish) it is the better, and I would say that French polishing, which is still a habit of one or two of the bigger institutions in the USA has actually almost irretrievably damaged perhaps to a ninor extent a large number of instruments. It is being fought against by many of the younger makers. "

[Húslař]

Too many questions, and the answer is too many  no, no, no nos, with the exeption of the one  "Restorating of varnish on Stradivaris, Guarneris and another rare violins",  that must be left to specialists.

 

And here are specialists. Or not?

How You polishing?

 

This topic is not only for me. I only started it - and You and another should continuing...

 

Thanks!

[MANFIO]

All the processes above are too agressive and can damage the varnish.

 

In general, leaving the varnish as it is is is better than doing something, unless you are a varnish specialist.

 

I just make new instruments, I am not a restorer.

[jacobsaunders]

I think that the title of this thread is slightly unfortunately chosen, since it is more often the CLEANING of old violin varnish, not it's restoration that is the problem. It would, in a perfect world, be best, if the player would wipe all the rosin off with a duster, every time before he put his violin back in the case, but one has to live with reality. The violin of mine that I posted recently http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/333710-vintage-violin-at-house-clearance/?p=706041 being an example of something that hadn't even been dusted for over 30 years.

I suppose that there are two approaches; one using some sort of solvent, and the other some sort of abrasive. The important part is stopping before one gets to the original varnish, rather leave some dirt on than compromise that.

The funny thing is, that cleaning some sort of 300 year old oil varnish is relatively dead easy, since it is hardly going to dissolve. Cleaning newer instruments, where you have no idea what the original varnish was/is can be more dangerous. A good practice, is to experiment somewhere obscure, like beneath the tail piece first. It wouldn't be helpful to get to doctrinaire on this subject, because one needs the experience to suss out what one may do with different sorts of varnish.

Before one becomes pedantic about polish, it should be noted that some areas, for instance the treble upper rib, by the neck root, where sweaty hands have dissolved every last vestige of varnish need some new varnish applied, NB. After being thoroughly cleaned, since if you varnish over dirt, you are only preserving dirt for eternity. This is also the big general criticism of “French” polishing (the French might feel discriminated against), since polishing over dirt, is only to preserve dirt for ever.

Most people have their own polishing mixture (“JOHA polish” or “Viol” could be made of anything, and the most expensive part, the bottle). It would be an important consideration that the violin doesn't remain sticky, and therefore attract and absorb the next layer of rosin. The object is to get the violin CLEAN, not shiny.

My polishing mixture consists of:

1 part water (out of the tap)

1 part spirit of campfer (from the apothecary)

1 part turpentine (not to be confused with turpentine substitute!”)

1 part paraffin oil (from the apothecary)

You have to shake the bottle, 'cos it's an emulsion before you DAMP your polishing rag with it. Afterwards I make sure the violin is dry with a paper kitchen towel. This doesn't work everywhere, but then, this is an involved subject.

[Húslař]

Very useful quote from Mr. Beare. Thank You Manfio!

 

I don´t think that I will have in future some Stradivaris in my hands for repairing. But is good to be ready.  

 

When I have in hands Stradivari violin Auer (for watching only ) I smell propolis and instrument was polished as glass. The same type of polish I saw on many instruments (for example in Cremona Museo del Violino,...). I read that it´s not the best but what if some places are without varnish (scuffed to wood) - what the good restorer give there?

[joerobson]

First rule:  Do no harm.

Second rule:  Ask an expert: Bruce Carlson, Andrew Dipper, and Jeffery Holmes all come to mind...but there may be some one closer to you.

Joe

[ctanzio]

Jacob, than you for sharing your recipe. Can you list varnishes where you feel it is "safe" and finishes where caution is needed (for example, linseed, colophony, shellac)?

[franciscus]

When I have in hands Stradivari violin Auer (for watching only ) I smell propolis and instrument was polished as glass. The same type of polish I saw on many instruments (for example in Cremona Museo del Violino,...). I read that it´s not the best but what if some places are without varnish (scuffed to wood) - what the good restorer give there?

I do not think that any polish (if we are not talking about french polishing) contains the propolis, but I know the man who pretty effectively uses the modified 1704 varnish made with propolis and turpentine, instead of pure shellac in french polishing. Smells wonderful.

[jacobsaunders]

Jacob, than you for sharing your recipe. Can you list varnishes where you feel it is "safe" and finishes where caution is needed (for example, linseed, colophony, shellac)?

On the proverbial Stradivari etc, one can use it to clean off dirt with great impunity. On a Markschön box ditto. On something like one of my Dads from the 1950s, (Michelman? not sure) not neccesarily, hense the tip, try first somewhere like beneath the tail piece.

[franciscus]

Mr. Saunders, I also want to thank you for your recipe, that I use regularly since you published it first time here. I also made its modification, intended to cleaning the extremely dirt violins, sometimes covered with the thick layer of colophony which is usually used in the welding. The modification means that I add to your polish one part (by mass) calcium carbonate which I made in the lab - this is precipitated carbonate, result of chemical reaction and has extremely fine crystals, very similar to the Wiener Kalk, but finer, so the resulting mixture is something like the usual cream polish. Beside that, I cannot find the spirit of camphor in apothecary in my neighborhood,  so I bought the pure camphor on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121698162141?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=420700298246&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) and made the solution - 11 grams of camphor in 100 ml of 96% ethanol.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hello!

 

I want to start topic about repairing of old violins varnishes.

 

Starting questions or what is the purpose of our discoursing:

 

French polish YES? NO?

 

Polishing grinding

 

Adding of own spirit varnish layer (or layers) on old surface

 

Propolis polish

 

Restorating of varnish on Stradivaris, Guarneris and another rare violins

 

Cleaning of colophony or another dirt with sandpaper and oil?

 

Super NIKCO

 

JOHA polish

 

Tripoli, Vienna chalk

 

and more...

 

 

Topic aim is to avoid destruction of old instruments as we can see it on much examples in museums.

 

Thank you in advance to everyone who will be involved!

 

This is a rather long list of procedures, a few of which are appropriate some of the time, and many others I just don't use and don't recommend...  but to hit all the points adequately would require a significant time investment, I believe.

 

Rather than hit the bullet points, I hope it's OK with you that I just start with some general statements concerning a few of the subtopics.

 

Cleaning finishes; Important to test the finish whenever introducing an new solvent (that includes water). At Oberlin, we've used a number of cleaning agents, ranging from distilled or de-ionized water, or restoration soaps (like Vulpex) in water or Stoddard (on the more neutral end of things) to castor oil & alcohol or xylene (on the end requiring serious care of use and sometimes even environmental protection). Safest procedure is to "walk up" the methods available starting with the most inert. In my own shop, I very rarely find I need to go beyond restoration soaps and patience to remove dirt and crusted rosin... and I can't recall the last time an abrasive was required (or desired).

 

Protection; I'm a fan of keeping the finish clean, which is often enough. Restoration waxes have their place as well, though care should be taken to avoid pushing wax into cracks, bare wood or the purfling joint. Care should be taken that if using a commercial product that no silicone is present in the formula.

 

Touch up is a rather involved subject; I view the goal as mimicking the undisturbed varnish and limiting the application to where it's actually required (I think there is often too much "feathering in" or homoginizing). I want the varnish used to be non reactive with the surrounding finish, be as reversible as possible, and stable. In almost all cases, I can manage to mimic the color, texture and gloss through modifications of a rather simple touchup varnish and application.

 

French Polish; It's a technique that has it's place when used locally to address a specific issue. It's unfortunately a technique that is often used when not necessary and can be invasive to the original finish. Jacob mentioned polishing the upper rib wear after cleaning, which I think is fine and I have done in the past... though for the last several years I've turned to application with an airbrush in that area as the amount the varnish penetrates the cleaned wood can be controlled by the proximity of the airbrush to the work (more distance, the more the varnish begins to lose solvent before it hits the work).

 

I hope the above at least indirectly addresses some of your bullet points.

[Jerry Lynn]

 

Cleaning finishes; Important to test the finish whenever introducing an new solvent (that includes water). At Oberlin, we've used a number of cleaning agents, ranging from distilled or de-ionized water, or restoration soaps (like Vulpex) in water or Stoddard (on the more neutral end of things) to castor oil & alcohol or xylene (on the end requiring serious care of use and sometimes even environmental protection). Safest procedure is to "walk up" the methods available starting with the most inert. In my own shop, I very rarely find I need to go beyond restoration soaps and patience to remove dirt and crusted rosin... and I can't recall the last time an abrasive was required (or desired).

 

 

I think it's worth noting that using products borrowed from art restoration and laboratory practices has some other advantages - they are "known" items, you aren't relying on someones recipe. It's easy to let a colleague who sees the same instrument what works and they'll be able to duplicate it relatively easily.  And, if you are working on something significant it makes notating for future easy (tracking down what might have caused a failure, etc.) 

[Dwight Brown]

One thought is the rosin I have been using lately seems to have a lot of grab on the bow, but very little build up on the instrument.  Andrea Viola/Violin Solo.  I have no idea if this is really the case, or if it simply my imagination.  It's worth a try though.  100% cotton flannel cloth used for wiping the instrument and the bow stick every single time you use it is also an amazingly cheap idea.

 

 

Happy ChrismaHunakkaQuanzaSolstice,

 

DLB

[Brad Dorsey]

....My polishing mixture consists of:

1 part water (out of the tap)

1 part spirit of campfer (from the apothecary)

1 part turpentine (not to be confused with turpentine substitute!”)

1 part paraffin oil (from the apothecary)...

 

Perhaps I am not the only one who is unclear about what some of these things are since they may go by different names on this side of the ocean.  I know what "tap water" is.  I have heard of camphor, but I don't know what "spirit of camfer" is.  I think I can be sure of obtaining "turpentine" if I specify pure gum spirits of turpentine.  I'm not sure what "paraffin oil" is, but I believe that what the Brits call "paraffin" we call kerosene.  Is "paraffin oil" the same as kerosene?  And I believe that "apothecary" means pharmacy or drug store.  Does that mean I can obtain  "spirit of camfer" and "paraffin oil" at my local Rite-Aid? 

 

Can someone translate these terms?

[MaestronetLurker]

Generally speaking, less is more when it comes to varnish repairs.  In deciding how far to go you should consider that they are worn objects, and the goal is not to fill every chip and ding and polish the whole thing smooth.  Any time you can preserve original texture of varnish you should try to do so.  I've seen some unfortunate repairs where a small touchup gets blended over a wide area, and much original texture is smoothed to blend.  That is one of the reasons that caution is advised with some of the above methods.  Some folks think that there's no harm in french polishing in a method that leaves behind little to no film, but part of the concern is that it softens the surface and smooths it.  Even if nothing is built up on top of the varnish you will change the surface texture.  If any original texture was there you can gloss it over.

[franciscus]

Perhaps I am not the only one who is unclear about what some of these things are since they may go by different names on this side of the ocean.  I know what "tap water" is.  I have heard of camphor, but I don't know what "spirit of camfer" is.  I think I can be sure of obtaining "turpentine" if I specify pure gum spirits of turpentine.  I'm not sure what "paraffin oil" is, but I believe that what the Brits call "paraffin" we call kerosene.  Is "paraffin oil" the same as turpentine?  And I believe that "apothecary" means pharmacy or drug store.  Does that mean I can obtain  "spirit of camfer" and "paraffin oil" at my local Rite-Aid? 

 

Can someone translate these terms?

I am pretty sure that the "camfer" in Mr. Saunders' post was the tipfehler - the German term for camphor is Kampfer. Spirit of camphor = Spiritus camphorae = Tinctura camphorae = Tincture of camphor = cca 10% solution of camphor in ethanol. Paraffin oil is not the same thing as the turpentine - in this context, paraffin oil (in Europe, AKA mineral oil) is not the oil at all, strictly speaking, but the mixture of alkanes (paraffines) of more than 15 C atoms in the chain. The heavy grade (longer chain) of this oil one can buy in apothecary (pharmacy, drug store) and it is usually serves as an intestinal lubricant. The light grade serves in enology, as a sealer between the wine in tanks and the air.

[Michael Richwine]

Perhaps I am not the only one who is unclear about what some of these things are since they may go by different names on this side of the ocean.  I know what "tap water" is.  I have heard of camphor, but I don't know what "spirit of camfer" is.  I think I can be sure of obtaining "turpentine" if I specify pure gum spirits of turpentine.  I'm not sure what "paraffin oil" is, but I believe that what the Brits call "paraffin" we call kerosene.  Is "paraffin oil" the same as kerosene?  And I believe that "apothecary" means pharmacy or drug store.  Does that mean I can obtain  "spirit of camfer" and "paraffin oil" at my local Rite-Aid? 

 

Can someone translate these terms?

 

You can buy paraffin oil from Behlen in the US.  It's great for rubbing and French polishing, and for sanding / dressing fingerboards and nuts.  It's a very good lubricant, but unlike regular mineral oil, it evaporates completely overnight. I don't know whether this is what Jacob was talking about,  because, at least in the UK, the same term is often used for lamp oil or fuel for oil heaters.

[gizmomonster]

what is the best way to restore a nick where the varnish is removed on an old violin that is nice sounding but not worth that much? Leave it or revarnish it or touch it up? It doesn't need to be perfect as the top is far from perfect, but I've been trying to figure out what to do with the largest nick where the varnish was removed. 

 

My daughter accidently dropped an ipad on a violin and nicked the varnish in a couple of spots (and of course she was messing around with the violin). Luckily she didn't create a crack in the violin or reopen a crack on the top. But....../sigh.

[MaestronetLurker]

what is the best way to restore a nick where the varnish is removed on an old violin that is nice sounding but not worth that much? Leave it or revarnish it or touch it up? It doesn't need to be perfect as the top is far from perfect, but I've been trying to figure out what to do with the largest nick where the varnish was removed. 

 

My daughter accidently dropped an ipad on a violin and nicked the varnish in a couple of spots (and of course she was messing around with the violin). Luckily she didn't create a crack in the violin or reopen a crack on the top. But....../sigh.

That's worth starting a new topic for. Include some photos, and anything you can discern about what the finish is.

[Conor Russell]

You can buy paraffin oil from Behlen in the US.  It's great for rubbing and French polishing, and for sanding / dressing fingerboards and nuts.  It's a very good lubricant, but unlike regular mineral oil, it evaporates completely overnight. I don't know whether this is what Jacob was talking about,  because, at least in the UK, the same term is often used for lamp oil or fuel for oil heaters.

Paraffin oil, sold as a medicine and used as a lubricant is called Liquid Paraffin here.

 

Kerosene, used for home heating oil or jet fuel and as a lamp oil, is often called paraffin oil here. it's hardly sold at the pharmacy, so I suspect it's the liquid paraffin Jacob means.

[Michael Richwine]

Paraffin oil, sold as a medicine and used as a lubricant is called Liquid Paraffin here.

 

Kerosene, used for home heating oil or jet fuel and as a lamp oil, is often called paraffin oil here. it's hardly sold at the pharmacy, so I suspect it's the liquid paraffin Jacob means.

 

Ahhh! We just call that mineral oil over here.  Probem is, it doesn't readily evaporate, although it may, eventually. Some of my colleagues use it, but not after I introduce them to Behlen's paraffin oil.

[franciscus]

From chemical standpoint, all these things are the mixtures of alkanes - paraffins - with the various number of carbon atoms involved in their chains. Less C atoms in the chain means easier evaporation and, consequently, lower flash point, and vice versa. In the term "paraffin oil", the word "paraffin" determines the chemical structure, and in the term "mineral oil", the word "mineral" determines the origin - these materials came from the mineral resources, as the products of the fractional distillation of the petroleum. Kerosene is the mixture of alkanes with 6-16 C atoms, usually.

[jacobsaunders]

Not being a chemist, in any respect, I wasn’t expecting any confusion on this. Here you just go to the Apotheke (apothecary) and ask for Parafinöl (some say Vasalineöl), which I had presumed would be called Parafin oil in English The official EU terminilogy is apparently “Paraffinum Liquidum” or here: http://www.tech-faq.com/paraffinum-liquidum.html

Spirit of Campher says “Solutio Camphorae Spirituosa” on the bottle, and is an etherische oil. The campher content is 10,2% and is apparently, according to the dictionary, 1 part campher 7 parts spirit and 2 parts water.

Terpentinöl says “Aetheroleum Terebinthinae Rectificatum” on the bottle, or here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine

I guess American taps have water in them

[jezzupe]

I'd also second a thanks to Jacob for that cleaner recipe, it's really great. I think it should be a "sticky" post at the top; "NEED TO CLEAN YOUR INSTRUMENT?"

 

i think this solution is the first thing to try in most situations.