Violin identification, wood date obtained by Peter Ratcliff

[______]

Hi all.

So here it is. This is the violin that was the spark that caused fire in my head. Although I've got some conjuctures nothing's still have no idea who has made this violin.

Just to make it more clear I've decided to ask Peter Ratcliff to obtaine belly dates which he naturally did. I would like to thank him again here. Indeed he is really a pro  :hail:

What I have is my description and Peter's data of course. Measurements in spite of wood wear could not match exactly typical of that which father of this violin used to make.

Measurements: LOB 354mm, Widths: 161/107/199,5.

 

Peter's data:

"The bass side visible latest ring is dated 1824 and the treble side 1817. You are right about the two sides being different and it is quite clear when I examine the plotted data on a graph.(...) 

The strongest correlations by far are with instruments made in Mittenwald, and that wood is quite typical of the one they used, but I wouldn't say exclusively.

In view of the latest ring date of 1824, we have to assume that the violin was not made before about 1835 or so, possibly a little later, bearing in mind the exceedingly tight growth at the end of the series, (at the centre joint), and that is where some wood has to be removed to create the joint between the two sides prior to gluing the surfaced together.

I also tested the data against published Master reference chronologies from the ITRDB (international tree-ring data bank) and found that both sides correlated with several at very significant levels of significance at the dates above, the best correlations with Swiss and Southern Austrian references."

 

I've got some photos of it. Some of them are taken before restoration. Head (which was replaced with neck) and body was in bad state. I would say someone tried to change scroll with blunt knife.

Lower ribs were replaced before I bought it years ago. They're two piece.

 

If you would be so kind please help to identify it. If any more photo measure is needed I would be happy to deliver it.

Regards!

[jacobsaunders]

Looks like a re-varnished Saxon box with a back sound post crack.

I hope you are taking Peter out of context with the Mittenwald insinuation, otherwise it would confirm some of my un-PC thoughts about “dendro”

[______]

Looks like a re-varnished Saxon box with a back sound post crack.

I hope you are taking Peter out of context with the Mittenwald insinuation, otherwise it would confirm some of my un-PC thoughts about “dendro”

 

Thank you Jacob for showing up, I hoped for it. While body indeed seems to be Sachsen shaped and f-holes order me to search within Klingenthal first, the belly grain remains Tyrol area to me. Please correct if I am wrong.

Peter said that wood is probably one of the tighest growth he had ever tried to test and I do believe him.

Nonetheless I won't stop until I find out who's the maker.

[Ratcliffiddles]

Looks like a re-varnished Saxon box with a back sound post crack.

I hope you are taking Peter out of context with the Mittenwald insinuation, otherwise it would confirm some of my un-PC thoughts about “dendro”

 

Totally irrespective of the dendro results, I find it very difficult to dismiss Mittenwald totally for the body of that violin from the pictures (before re-varnishing) . If the old head was the original however, I would have more of a problem.

 

Looking at what remains of the original varnish, its colour/appearance, especially on the front, before being "dealt with", I cannot say that what I see relates to a Saxon fiddle.

[Blank face]

 While body indeed seems to be Sachsen shaped and f-holes order me to search within Klingenthal first, the belly grain remains Tyrol area to me. Please correct if I am wrong.

Peter said that wood is probably one of the tighest growth he had ever tried to test and I do believe him.

Nonetheless I won't stop until I find out who's the maker.

 

The first thing to do would be to look inside how the blocks are shaped: Assymetrical with inserted linings: prob. Mittenwald against symetrical, linings not inserted: prob. saxon/bohemian.

Possibly the lower blocks are replaced, but the upper might be still original.

We won't talk furthermore about Tyrol, that's no option .

Nonetheless in both cases it would be hard to find an individual maker, for it appears to be from the division of labour period.

[jacobsaunders]

I have no problem excluding Mittenwald for the „body“ (not to mention the present scroll) and would like to save time, by linking to an explanation from a previous post http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325798-quiz-for-addie/?p=538590

Should the OP have reason to open the violin, I would be confident that this would become clearer.