Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Darkening Red-Brown varnish


Rich
 Share

Recommended Posts

I am wondering the best way to darken Hammerl 1A red-brown varnish. I would like it a bit darker on the spruce especially to migrate away from a slight lean toward pink. Would it work to mix red-brown varnish with an equal amount of dark brown varnish? These are pre-mixed varnishes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There isn't a huge amount of color in the Hammerl varnish. It probably works better over a highly colored ground, but it's too late for that. Test a bit of the brown over red brown. If that isn't enough, personally, I would add a bit of burnt umber to help turn the pink into a nice chestnut color.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I looked closer at what I bought and it seems I purchased the standard oil varnish instead of the 1A.  Is there considerable difference?  I really want this violin to turn out lovely plus I have not put anything on the violin yet.  I have experimented with the varnish on left-over scraps of from cutting out my plates on top of a light burnt sugar ground (which seems lighter now than when I first put it on).

 

I can set this stuff aside and order something better, but am not sure I want to try to cook my own varnish.  This has been a long time in the making with buying tools and researching each step.  I am in Canada, so that might limit my choices.  Seems likely problamatic to get Old Wood system here and I am not sure Joe Robson ships to Canada.  I would like something with easy-to-follow steps. 

 

If there is significant quality differences, I could try the Joha 1A (now that I know I did not end up with what I thought I was getting).  What would you do short of making your own?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If there is significant quality differences, I could try the Joha 1A (now that I know I did not end up with what I thought I was getting).  What would you do short of making your own?

 

You could check around and try and find some of the Ace spar varnish that has been mentioned on this forum. Color it with some madder lake and perhaps a little asphalt and burnt umber, and you're good to go.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could check around and try and find some of the Ace spar varnish that has been mentioned on this forum. Color it with some madder lake and perhaps a little asphalt and burnt umber, and you're good to go.

 

 

 

I have heard  lot about this Ace Spar, and I always curious to know a few things, I remember reading the the formula has changed and it is not as good anymore, is it true?

The other thing is, is it a Alkyd based varnish as most modern varnishes are? if so anyone has seen the effect of prolonged aging? Does it turn more opaque as all the alkid based resins I have seen? Does it acquire the very ugly yellow tonality that all alkyd based varnish I have tried do?

Or is it Phenolic, lots of the phenolic varnishes happen the same thing.

And the UV inhibitors as far as I understand are also a problem for long term looks...

 

Any of these issues with Ace?

 

The spar varnishes my boat builder friends (who built super hi class stuff) like are the Petitt Captains varnish and Epifanes. both turn opaque and ugly, I have tried Intelux Schooner...that is ugly out of the can already.

 

They all look like Auto Show to me when new, and ugly opaque yellow once aged, and than removal is necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have heard  lot about this Ace Spar, and I always curious to know a few things, I remember reading the the formula has changed and it is not as good anymore, is it true?

The other thing is, is it a Alkid based varnish as most modern varnishes are? if so anyone has seen the effect of prolonged aging? Does it turn more opaque as all the alkid based resins I have seen? Does it acquire the very ugly yellow tonality that all alkid based varnish I have tried do?

Or is it Phenolic, lots of the phenolic varnishes happen the same thing.

And the UV inhibitors as far as I understand are also a problem for long term looks...

 

Any of these issues with Ace?

 

The spar varnishes my boat builder friends (who built super hi class stuff) like are the Petitt Captains varnish and Epifanes. both turn opaque and ugly, I have tried Intelux Schooner...that is ugly out of the can already.

 

They all look like Auto Show to me when new, and ugly opaque yellow once aged, and than removal is necessary.

It is an oil finish.  For an exterior wooden front door of a house, for example, a minimum of 3 coats brushed would hold up a few years maybe, depending on the outside weather.  7 or 8 coats would be better.  For use on a boat and saltwater environment you may find yourself refinishing varnished areas yearly.  It's nothing from me against Ace for boats, it's just the nature of the outdoor elements.

 

My personal opinion for use on violins is that it may be overkill protection wise.  Anything made for outdoors is tougher than stuff made for interior use only.  It would depend on what Ace's spar ingredients would be before I would consider using it for violins.  If the stuff turns opaque after aging then there could be a plastic or vinyl of sorts in the mix of ingredents, just a guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is the nature of Alkyd and Phenolic resins, don't know if all of them, also the uv inhibitors, doesn't matter if oil or solvent based, it is the resin, for boat I don't like it because every so many years everything needs to be stripped...what I wonder is for violins, since makers are concerned with long term effects, it will surely last, but will it look good?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never used the Ace product myself, as it's an American product unavailable here in the deep freeze.  I have heard many mention it on the forum here as being a reasonable varnish for instruments; my suggestion was based on this.  As for the formula having changed, I can't say.

 

Does anyone here have a small quantity of the older stuff they could send to Rich?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spar varnish is not an alkyd resin base, it is urethane. Urethane is much more scratch resistant, yet tends to become yellow and translucent, whereas, soya/alkyd resin is less abrasion resistant, yet maintains it's clarity quite well over long periods of time. Of course alkyds are not time tested as say conifer based varnish as seen on older instruments ad furniture.

 

Also finishes will change dramatically and differently based on the amount of uv exposure, a varnish that was doing well for a long period of time based on being an interior object may suddenly change for the worse if it is exposed to large amounts of UV light.

 

I think this is the advantage of products like Joe's, in that as time goes by UV light exposure, if anything, seems to "crystallize" and clarify and actually look better as time goes by, where most "modern" varnishes look best at first, but go downhill as time passes. Conifer linseed seems to do the opposite.

 

As time goes by and uv effects the clarity of urethane varnish, it effects the way light passes through the film, creating a dull "undimensional" film, where conifer/linseed gets clearer and seems to increase luster, depth and reflection as time passes.Alkyds, so far, based on general consensus,imo, from many fields, is a much more uv friendly coating and will remain much more clear than utrethane over prolonged periods of time

 

Pheonilic is a derivative of bakalite and not a resin I recommend for anything but floors and certain woodwork, seems to blend well using tung oil as the vehicle as seen with a product called waterlox, basically it gives the ability to have an "oiled" finish look yet have some abrasion/stain resistance above and beyond straight oil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it's been awhile, I have looked into this a bit, besides the voc changes, that alter the resin/vehicle ratio, it's seems that several versions of "Spar" {kinda a generic term for exterior grade finish} were in fact pheno/alk based resins, yet seems many have moved to urethane resins. All  know is that the dry times on these modern varnishes have become unrealistically long based on the voc changes unless catalyzed with nasty isocyanate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanation Jezzupe. The info I got regarding Alkyd resins was from a chemist of a Italian multinational company manufacturer of varnishes, he explained to me that the opacity with time is because of the manner the resin is made (whatever that means?, and maybe it also means that it can be made in other manners that it does not become opaque with UV?) ,

 

The Iterlux Schooner is a Phenolic Tung oil based Spar.

Epifanes is a phenolic modified alkyd + tung oil varnish.

Pettit Captain's Varnish is a Phenolic + alkyd + tung + linseed oil varnish.

 

Just to be clear I am posting in concern to violin makers using a product that may or may not be good in the long run...I myself use Joe Robson's Spar varnish on the exterior of my boat, slowly replacing all of the modern varnish which looks cheap in comparison.

 

Now for interior, I will eventually replace it all with my own varnishes and some of Joe's violin varnishes I have from the workshop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanation Jezzupe. The info I got regarding Alkyd resins was from a chemist of a Italian multinational company manufacturer of varnishes, he explained to me that the opacity with time is because of the manner the resin is made (whatever that means?, and maybe it also means that it can be made in other manners that it does not become opaque with UV?) ,

 

The Iterlux Schooner is a Phenolic Tung oil based Spar.

Epifanes is a phenolic modified alkyd + tung oil varnish.

Pettit Captain's Varnish is a Phenolic + alkyd + tung + linseed oil varnish.

I often wonder if there is a magic ingredient/s that could make a product like Joe's be suitable for exterior use? Exterior clear coating has always been a challenge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carlo, even the finest Cremonese varnishes would probably go downhill very quickly, if used for coating exterior wooden boat parts.

The automotive finish folks may have done the most research pertaining to coatings holding up in an exterior environment, but these finishes don't need to deal with the dimensional changes inherent in wood.

 

The "old" Ace Spar varnish is described on the label as containing a "modified alkyd resin". The newer version, I believe, uses a water vehicle, rather than a petroleum based solvent. Probably so they can sell it in places like California, and in anticipation of other areas jumping on the same pollution bandwagon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for my lack of communication skills, I have been posting only regarding modern synthetic resins Spar varnishes on violins - - - on boats it is a different animal and a different forum -  and even there am not in favor of the synthetic resins, because of the need to strip it down to bare wood every so many years.

 

And, yes I agree cremonese varnishes if made as B&G researched would not last in the elements, another type of resin is necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for my lack of communication skills, I have been posting only regarding modern synthetic resins Spar varnishes on violins - - - on boats it is a different animal and a different forum -  and even there am not in favor of the synthetic resins, because of the need to strip it down to bare wood every so many years.

 

And, yes I agree cremonese varnishes if made as B&G researched would not last in the elements, another type of resin is necessary.

Well then clearly we need to come and build some contraption that will allow you to bow your boat. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carlo, even the finest Cremonese varnishes would probably go downhill very quickly, if used for coating exterior wooden boat parts.

The automotive finish folks may have done the most research pertaining to coatings holding up in an exterior environment, but these finishes don't need to deal with the dimensional changes inherent in wood.

 

The "old" Ace Spar varnish is described on the label as containing a "modified alkyd resin". The newer version, I believe, uses a water vehicle, rather than a petroleum based solvent. Probably so they can sell it in places like California, and in anticipation of other areas jumping on the same pollution bandwagon.

Yes Zar has a nifty emulsion "water" base exterior finish. Which is always strange because they have spontaneous combustion warnings on the can for rags and such, yet you are cleaning brushes with water.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...