Violin ID help please

[b sharp]

I am requesting the collective wisdom of the forum to assist a family following a terrible event in South Africa. About a month ago a retired professional violin player, Sophie Gehring, was murdered in her home during a robbery. Amongst other things her two violins were stolen. Her family is busy dealing with the insurers and approached me to provide a value on her missing violins. The information about them is very sketchy and the attached pictures are the only ones remaining. This is what the family believes:

 

Violin 1: HC Silvestre - Paris 1896

Violin 2: Jean Baptiste - Paris 1850 (I suppose it is meant to be a Vuillaume?)

 

I am aware that these two makers' names might also be attached to 'workshop of' type instruments, and that will affect the valuation substantially. So the question really is whether these instruments are from the hands of the makers mentioned. I don't have the expertise to answer this.

 

Any assistance will be appreciated.

 

Also, if you happen to come across these two violins, please contact me.

 

Albertus Bekker

[Rue]

That's very sad news.    My condolences...

 

I hope someone can help with the violins...

[Ron1]

I noted violin #1 having 4 fine tuners, violin #2 not set-up, and that both were photographed at the same time.  Is there significance in these observations?

[MarkBouquet]

The "set up" violin appears to have its bridge installed backwards, with the lower "e" string side on the bass side of the instrument, and the higher "g" string side on the treble side. It's difficult to believe that a professional violinist, retired or not, would have two instruments in such poor condition. I can only wonder what kind of a ruse this is.

[Jacob]

The "set up" violin appears to have its bridge installed backwards, with the lower "e" string side on the bass side of the instrument, and the higher "g" string side on the treble side. It's difficult to believe that a professional violinist, retired or not, would have two instruments in such poor condition. I can only wonder what kind of a ruse this is.

 

It is not a ruse of any kind.

[b sharp]

No ruse. She was quite old and probably did not play any more. I am a longstanding member of this site and understand the etiquette.

 

Here are two more pictures of her playing the violins if it will add some credibility.

[Blank face]

I'm afraid that it is impossible to identify the instruments by this pictures ever; nor to say anything about the condition (there could be back soundpost cracks, f.i.), what's also very important for the insurance value.

[b sharp]

Yes, I think that is probably true. Unless there is anything obvious on the pictures to indicate that the violins are not what the family think they are, I am inclined to just give them an indication of the values with a big caveat that I can't confirm authenticity...

[jacobsaunders]

Yes, I think that is probably true. Unless there is anything obvious on the pictures to indicate that the violins are not what the family think they are, I am inclined to just give them an indication of the values with a big caveat that I can't confirm authenticity...

It isn't possible to give any “indication of value” whatsoever, from the 2 OP pictures, however big your caveat might be.

[Blank face]

 Unless there is anything obvious on the pictures to indicate that the violins are not what the family think they are, I am inclined to just give them an indication of the values with a big caveat that I can't confirm authenticity...

 

One feature I believe to see, is that both of the inside pegboxes are blackened - this would exclude a french origin. But OTOH, it's nothing 100% clear to see, beside that it could be a later alteration, Just to demonstrate, that everything you can tell is nearly worthless, and nothing to base any "indication" or opinion upon it.

[gamerchic]

Yes, I think that is probably true. Unless there is anything obvious on the pictures to indicate that the violins are not what the family think they are, I am inclined to just give them an indication of the values with a big caveat that I can't confirm authenticity...

I can't speak to the violin identification but my caution would be on offering values for insurance purposes. With just those two photos there's not enough visually available to give a good appraisal (may not be the best word) or to even confirm what the family thinks about the violins. My thoughts would be: are you putting yourself at legal risk by providing values on these violins for insurance payouts? I don't know how insurance laws work in South Africa, but I would suggest caution to avoid the insurance company coming back on you if there's a problem. It's really tragic that this terrible crime happened.

[Jacob]

I've had two similar experiences, in the one instance a stolen violin, in the other a "lost" one from a deceased estate. In the last instance it was actually the lawyer who acted as executor of the estate who approached me. Apart from legal ramifications, one has to try and keep a clean slate, especially in South Africa where it is not unusual to see violins bought for the equivanlent of $10,000 which might be worth $500 on a good (bad?) day. In both cases I simply stated that there was nothing for me to go on apart from photos and family lore.

 

Don't touch this with a barge pole. If there is one thing in South Africa you don't mess with, it's insurance companies.

[Will L]

 What a sad story

 

Yes the pictures are bad, but the violin on the left looks like a quite good instrument;  I wouldn't discard the idea that it may be a fine French instrument.  But of course I'm giving no usable help.  

 

At least these photos are good enough that if the instruments turn up, the family can support their ownership.  Better some bad pictures than none at all.

[b sharp]

Thanks for all the responses and valuable advice. I will revert to the family...

[uncle duke]

Thanks for all the responses and valuable advice. I will revert to the family...

I'd thought Dan_s would of had the crime solved already.  Sad indeed, be careful.