How are players assigned to different sections?

[Kallie]

Watching a video on youtube, I started wondering. One cannot say first violins are more important than second violins, as both parts are absolutely essential. Based on what, does major orchestras assign players to certain sections? Must you audition for first or second? Many people assume that 2nd violins are inferior to the first violins.

 

Do they take the best players and put them on first violin? How do they sort them?

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

It depends.

 

In a community orchestra you have to put the weaker players in the 2nds - since they often can't play capably up the fingerboard in higher positions. 

 

BUT...you also can't have a 2nd violin section of only weak players - so you need to have a ringer or two that the others can follow.  If weaker players have a strong leader, they inherently play better (more confidence).  I'm a good example of that.  I play much better if I can relax and follow someone confident.  It also ...happened last night again while playing the bassoon too...the 2nd bassoon (moi)  had a rare lead (solo) and I didn't sound a note (happens) but then I panicked and then froze.  LOL.  Happens too...thankfully it's rehearsal...it's not difficult so I should be fine by performance time.  And the 1st will cover for me if I fall apart...so we're safe.  But if I was the only bassoon?  Oh boy...that would not be good for me...

 

In higher level orchestras you audition for a position...but they might offer you another position if they feel it fits the need better.

 

Then there's seniority - let's just say you made Section Leader by default...and a whole bunch of better players came along after you...you might very well remain Section Leader even if you are not the best option for that position.

[deans]

In some schools its the aggressive parent who ultimately decides.

 

In most of the adult orchestras I've been in, you usually audition for one or another, over the years many switch back and forth depending on the particular needs/personnel of the year or concert. Some individuals may push back wanting to stay on one section or another, others are more flexible.

[Carl Stross]

 One cannot say first violins are more important than second violins,

 

 Many people assume that 2nd violins are inferior to the first violins.

 

Do they take the best players and put them on first violin?

 

How do they sort them?

 

But of course they are.

 

And they are right

 

Yes.

 

By capability, laziness being part of the equation, too. It's often more comfy to be at the back. Out of sight, out of mind.

[gizmomonster]

In grammar and middle school those whom are better go in the first violin section. Those whom are worse go in the second violin section. Those of whom are really bad go in the third violin section. At least have 1-2 decent people in each section to keep order and help the others that are lost and need help/direction. 

 

In the school orchestra program I went through, the kids who were better were the ones that had quality private lessons and started learning early. I don't mean to stereotype, but they were usually Asian, usually Korean. The Asian parents were doctors and put their kids in violin lessons at 4-6.  The Asian kids would go straight into advanced orchestra in third grade while the rest of us third graders would be in beginner orchestra. As a third grader, it was like 'why are they special? why do they get to go into advanced orchestra?' without realizing kids could start violin at an earlier age and have private lesssons. By the time you got in advanced orchestra in 4th grade, the Asian kids were in the front chairs and the rest of us were in the remaining. Occasionally there would be some lucky kid who was not asian whose parents invested in private lessons from the start. Usually they were Jewish or foreign nationals.

 

If you had some talent and practiced you could advance as you got older. If you had no talent and/or didn't practice, you were in third violin section and at some point dropped out or remained in third violin section in the back row for life. 

 

Private lessons helped. There were 2 levels of private lessons: 'Local' and 'in the city.' 'In the city' lessons were better particularly near the city symphony hall and with professionals. Local lessons were worse quality but less expensive.  If you had talent and your parents didn't have you in lessons at some point it would be recommended that you get private lessons.  

 

Everybody got private lesson instruction with the orchestra director once a week, usually 3 kids on the same instrument around the same grade/level at a time for 30 mins. Problem was that if you had kids of a higher level and talent, the range was still pretty great between the asian kids and the rest of us. I remember being in a lesson with a Korean girl who had private lessons 'in the city', started violin lessons at 5; we were all the same age, and had all started orchestra together in third grade; she got all the attention by the director because she was leaps and bounds beyond us. The director was like 'listen, the rest of you. this is what you should sound like, you poor unfortunate souls. Just play the music, Korean girl, and remind me what the violin is supposed to sound like, just for 30 minutes to brighten my bleak existence.' We're in 6th grade, and she's doing vibrato. The rest of us are like 'why is your hand shaking.  Do you have parkinson's? how do we learn that? Why do you sound better?' all while thinking 'damn, i'm never gonna be in the first row, I wish I had private lessons and Asian doctor parents' and experience violin envy.

 

Those that were really talented were invited to join the school district symphonic orchestra. Again, same principles as above applied - just more competitive and a better quality selection. To be last chair, first violin was actually a good achievement. If you were in symphonic orchestra you had to invest in the 'outfit'. White shirt, long floor length black skirt, heels. You know how hard it is to find a floor length skirt for a developing preteen with no waist? very hard. My mom had to make one, luckily she was a good seamstress. 

 

I don't recall the parents affecting the chair placement. As if I could even get my parents to go. If the parents spent the money on the in-the-city private lessons, the kid practiced, and the kid was asian, they were first violin, first chair. It would have been far better to be a cellist or a violist like I had wanted, there were less of those. 

 

Years later I connected with the Korean girl who shared lessons and played beautifully. She would have preferred to be a normal kid and not had private lessons and had more time to go play and party. But she's a doctor now

[Will L]

I don't think there is anything set in stone on how to place players in an orchestra.  But for sure I never knew a violinist who didn't want to play in the first violin section rather than the seconds; or at least start out wanting to.  There certainly IS a badge of honor which has even led to the now very old expression: "I'm not playing second fiddle to anyone!"  —with slight variations. 

 

This is even true with playing in a quartet.  But while, IMO, the first violin parts are generally harder and more important in a symphony, I don't think you can say that about 1st and 2cd parts in a quartet.  "Easier and harder" aren't the factor; "different" is the factor.  A second violin in a quartet and a second violin section in a symphony have to fight to be heard.  They are somewhat like the violas: they are the "inner voices" and are not as noticeable, but ARE very missed if they are lost in the balance.

 

I don't know what it is like these days, but in the old days there was definitely a higher status associated with playing first or second as well as a status assigned depending on whether you were in the first few stands/desks of a section, and whether you were inside or outside on a desk.  The worst—let's admit it—would be to be on the last desk of a second violin section, sitting on the inside and turning pages to boot.  

 

Customarily, as positions became available, a violinist would automatically move up over the years.  Of course positions of principal and assistant principal weren't gained by attrition; you'd have to audition for them.  Some players would go for it, and others who didn't want to be heard would be content to live out their lives wherever they were assigned for each season.

 

Over the years, somehow the idea of rotating seating among the "section players" caught on.  I always thought it was ridiculous, but there are plenty of orchestral players who would disagree with me.  Supposedly rotating players keeps them interested and helps alleviate the stigma of being stuck in the back of the section.  But my theory has it that learning to play in different locations adds to the refinement of the output.  There are probably advantages to both.  I have been seated at the front AND the back of sections, and I think more skill is required when sitting at the back.  A really rough spot is the outside rear of the 1st violins; there you are really on the outskirts.

 

An amusing thing is how conductors used to persuade players that they really were important even though they were being stuck in the back of a section:  "Oh, I need to spread out my best players."  Well, I think there is truth to not putting all the very best up front IF there are big differences to be found. But in a major orchestra, these days, you would think there shouldn't be much difference in any of the players.  But it might be that differences in personality will always be with us.  (Maybe someone who is playing currently in a first rate orchestra can add to or argue with this statement.)

 

I don't know how different things might be now, but there always used to be members of violin sections who were more aggressive than others or who believed they were "more right" than those in their immediate vicinity.  They were termed "Konzertmeister von hinten" (or something similar) meaning "leader from the back."  It was a derisive title.      

[Rue]

In our orchestra - when I played violin in it...because it really doesn't matter...I happily opted to sit in the absolute last chair.  Less pressure...I relax...play better.  Win-win.

[Menachem]

Those of whom are really bad go in the third violin section...

 

 

I thought they were given violas and sent away.

[Will L]

There's the great old joke (no doubt it will be met with groans from violists, and you may hear them throughout the day as this is read around the world  ):

 

A young violist, sat on the last chair of one of the worst orchestras in the world, the "Bledsoe (Texas) Philharmonia."  Well, he was walking home one day when he found an old lamp.  Now he did what you and I would do:  he rubbed it.  And—as if you didn't already know—a genie appeared.

 

The genie offered him four wishes.  The violist was shocked and felt extra special and lucky to have been given one more wish than he believed the standard to be.  But he didn't waste time.  He thought, "The viola is my life; what need do I have for riches?"  So he asked his first wish:  "Genie, I would like to play the viola better."  And, POOF, he was better, and at the next seating audition he moved up in the section (thanks to the demise of a couple of violists who fell down a well trying to retrieve an errant calf).

 

Then, the young violist began to have delusions of grandeur, and he asked, "Genie, I want to be principal violist of the Philharmonia."  Long story short:  POOF, it was done.

 

But humans being human—our violist barely qualifying—wanted more.  He asked the genie to make him the principal violist of the greatest orchestra in the world.  And—guess what—he got his wish.  Now the violist had almost everything a violist could want.  He got to play the Berlioz solos for "Harold in Italy," record duets with Heifetz, and even made the cover of "Musical America."  But...

 

... there was still one thing nagging at the now aging violist.  He was not considered the greatest violist of all time. And he thought he should use his final wish to tie up all the loose ends of his otherwise sterling career.  He summoned the genie and asked, in fact IMPLORED the genie:  "Genie, this is my final wish.  I wish...I wish... to be the greatest violist who ever lived."  And POOF...

 

...in a cloud of smoke generated by the quick working-genie, our violist found himself sitting on the last chair of the second VIOLIN section of the one orchestra in the entire world worse than the Bledsoe Philharmonia, the "Muleshoe Symphony Orchestra."

[Rue]

*groan*