A university setting for violin knowledge

[jacobsaunders]

one master maker in his mid 60s who's been making violins for 40 years without a single machine

If you paid him a bit better, he would be able to afford himself a Sawzall

[martin swan]

Ok he's got a Sawzall!

TBH he does cut the plates out with a bandsaw but that's it ... he keeps begging me to buy him a kettle but I just flat refuse. I don't see why he can't make tea on an open fire - lots of woodchips lying around. Trying to run a business here ... 

[David Burgess]

If a factory is one master maker in his mid 60s who's been making violins for 40 years without a single machine, then I suppose so ...

I think "trade" violins is more accurate, as well as more respectful, and I don't see how dan_s's question is answered in any way.

I have great respect for the way you work, I have made that clear - our violins have no special pretensions beyond value for money when it comes to sound quality.

Why be snide?

 

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as snide. When you said that the violins are made in Reghin, varnished in Budapest, and set up in Scotland, I took that to mean that they were not the product of one shop or person.

I'm also not sure that in the US, we understand as well the distinction between something described as a "trade" and a "factory" item, neither of which I anticipated being taken as an insult in the $5000 price range.

Apologies again.

[Rue]

I thought those were called also called 'small shop' violins.  Indicating that while they went through more than one set of hands...it wasn't as impersonal as a factory violin...

[martin swan]

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as snide. When you said that the violins are made in Reghin, varnished in Budapest, and set up in Scotland, I took that to mean that they were not the product of one shop or person.

I'm also not sure that in the US, we understand as well the distinction between a "trade" and a "factory" item.

Apologies again.

Accepted with thanks.

[Carl Stross]

If a factory is one master maker in his mid 60s who's been making violins for 40 years without a single machine, then I suppose so ...

I think "trade" violins is more accurate, as well as more respectful, and I don't see how dan_s's question is answered in any way.

I have great respect for the way you work, I have made that clear - our violins have no special pretensions beyond value for money when it comes to sound quality.

Why be snide?

 

As for Carl's racism - can do without that. What has anything to do with gypsies? 

There are a lot of Roma in Reghin, and a lot of non-Roma Hungarians too. I work with both, though Fritz happens not to be Roma.

Or perhaps I misunderstood - wouldn't want to seem touchy! Maybe he's just trying to say I do a lot of travelling ...

 

If the "master maker" was making violins in Reghin in the '70s, he was packed with machines. Fanciest ever in a factory short of CNC. 

 

If the violin bodies are made in one place, varnished in another and set up in yet another, that smells "industrial". Your explanation clarified things somehow.

 

As to the gypsies, they had ( have ? ) a route starting in the former USSR which passed through Reghin, to Budapest and then Vienna. That comment was not meant to be racist. Some gypsies are the nicest people I have seen and some are to be avoided.

Part of the bad rap stems from their well established habit ( surely long gone now ) of stealing children and live stock. 

[Carl Stross]

Martin, one thing I do not understand is why if the varnish is by your account nothing special, you are making

the violins in Reghin and varnishing in .....  Budapest ? 

[martin swan]

All seriously off topic.

I don't accept your explanation of your gypsy comment - it was meant in a derogatory way. Of course Jacob said something earlier about gypsy business, but he's foul about absolutely everyone so somehow I wasn't annoyed by it.

 

I also find your use of inverted commas - "master maker" - pretty rude. This is actually a trade designation - under the old Romanian system there were and are "master makers" in the Hora and Gliga factories - these were individuals who were/are left to produce the higher end violins single-handed. Many good makers leave the factory system and set up as independent makers.

 

In 2008 I went to Reghin and commissioned violins from about 6 makers who were recommended to me by my friend Zsolt in Budapest. Fritz's violins were by far the best sounding, but I'm afraid I disliked his varnish. He had as you rightly point out started out in the Hora factory during the dark years (I think that was the main reason he subsequently turned his back on machines, along with health hazards from dust), and his varnish was of that school. Since he was happy to supply the violins in the white and Zsolt was happy to varnish them, that's how we started out, and that's how we have continued. In fact Zsolt is from Reghin and spends much of his time there - although Reghin and Budapest are 12 hours' drive from each other, he seems to regard them as nearby villages. He once persuaded me to do the drive with him - these days I take the very excellent WizzAir flight which costs about £20 each way.

 

My own take on varnish (right or wrong) is that it is almost entirely unimportant to the tone, provided it doesn't cloak the vibrations of the wood. So we use a rapid and easy varnish (Haemmerl Italian balsamic varnish) which is quick to apply. This is the main way we produce reasonable sounding violins that are affordable.

Anyway, 3 people are involved in each violin, start to finish, and I am one of them. I don't see how this could possibly be described as industrial, though I don't see how this matters, or why an industrially produced violin with excellent materials and quality control shouldn't be very successful.

 

Anyway, all your questioning seems intended to discredit. It is a fundamental principle of prosecutorial interrogation that you should know the answer before you ask the accusatory question. 

 

Inhabitants of the Scottish Borders are historically the worst offenders when it comes to stealing livestock ... perhaps you can turn that into some glib quip!

[Ben Hebbert]

 

 

Inhabitants of the Scottish Borders are historically the worst offenders when it comes to stealing livestock ... perhaps you can turn that into some glib quip!

 

Remember it was Lockey Hill who was hung for stealing horses! 

[martin swan]

We'd have granted him a castle ... if the horses were English.

[Carl Stross]

All seriously off topic.

1. I don't accept your explanation of your gypsy comment - it was meant in a derogatory way. Of course Jacob said something earlier about gypsy business, but he's foul about absolutely everyone so somehow I wasn't annoyed by it.

 

2. I also find your use of inverted commas - "master maker" - pretty rude. This is actually a trade designation -

 

3. under the old Romanian system there were and are "master makers" in the Hora and Gliga factories

 

4. In 2008 I went to Reghin and commissioned violins from about 6 makers who were recommended to me by my friend Zsolt in Budapest. Fritz's violins were by far the best sounding, but I'm afraid I disliked his varnish. He had as you rightly point out started out in the Hora factory during the dark years (I think that was the main reason he subsequently turned his back on machines, along with health hazards from dust), and his varnish was of that school. Since he was happy to supply the violins in the white and Zsolt was happy to varnish them, that's how we started out, and that's how we have continued. In fact Zsolt is from Reghin and spends much of his time there - although Reghin and Budapest are 12 hours' drive from each other, he seems to regard them as nearby villages. He once persuaded me to do the drive with him - these days I take the very excellent WizzAir flight which costs about £20 each way.

 

5. My own take on varnish (right or wrong) is that it is almost entirely unimportant to the tone, provided it doesn't cloak the vibrations of the wood. So we use a rapid and easy varnish (Haemmerl Italian balsamic varnish) which is quick to apply. This is the main way we produce reasonable sounding violins that are affordable.

Anyway, 3 people are involved in each violin, start to finish, and I am one of them. I don't see how this could possibly be described as industrial, though

 

6. I don't see how this matters, or why an industrially produced violin with excellent materials and quality control shouldn't be very successful.

 

7. Anyway, all your questioning seems intended to discredit. 

 

8. Inhabitants of the Scottish Borders are historically the worst offenders when it comes to stealing livestock ... perhaps you can turn that into some glib quip!

 

1. No, it wasn't but it doesn't matter if you accept it or not.

 

2. One is a maker or not. Master maker sounds phony. 

 

3. No. There were "Master violins" . Your "master maker" was a woodworker category 6 to 8 special. Cat 7 and over could take an exam and become the equivalent of foreman. 

 

4. Sounds like a good arrangement. 

 

5. I wouldn't know but it's a widely held belief.

 

6. Neither do I - an industrially produced violin can be very good indeed. From '58 to '60-'61 Reghin produced short series of a violin on Amati patter, of superb quality. 2nd best factory violin I saw / heard.

 

7. Really not my intention THIS time. I actually quite admire your effort and success in getting out on the market a good and affordable violin. My "beef" with you is on the "my playing" / tonal eval lines. That won't go away any soon because I am a biased bastard.

 

8. I know a LARGE number of Scottish people. That begs the question : how many times can the three cows inhabiting Scotland be stolen ? 

[skiingfiddler]

Steven, ... can you kindly elaborate on why this freedom  is a good idea? It's one thing entirely to put out a strong hypothesis only for it to be proven wrong by subsequent research - that is the fundamental of 'experiment' or 'debate', but what you are asking for is an entirely different thing. 

 

Given the choice that you leave me, I would rather buy from machold on the idiotic bet that I could embarrass him to resell the instrument to get me the price paid, than depend on an academic who could look at me blankly and say 'oops', because by your logic, my no matter how poor my chances, my chances would be better! 

 

Ben,

 

Concerning your first paragraph, I was not proposing anything different than what you seem willing to accept: the freedom "to put out a strong hypothesis only for it to be proven wrong by subsequent research."  I'm not asking for anything different than that for violin research.

 

I assume that serious researchers don't propose a hypothesis without some belief that there's a good chance it's true, and thus pursue support.   Thus I was not suggesting that any kind of nonsense is worth considering as a hypothesis, if that's what you were concerned about.  But I do believe that hypotheses should be allowed in any field, even if the hypotheses put a strain on traditional beliefs.

 

I get the feeling that in the violin field, hypotheses that contradict traditional beliefs aren't readily accepted for consideration.  A good example is one we've already discussed.  In 1902 the Hills had everyone believing that Stradivari worked without substantial help.  That belief was so firmly planted that only very recently has there been challenges.

 

Concerning your second paragraph:  I need to paraphrase what I think you are stating because I may be misunderstanding.  It seems I am proposing that there would be benefits if authentication could be separated from selling, benefits like more trust in the authentication.  Yes, that is what I was thinking.  You point out, if I'm understanding correctly, that such a separation would mean that the dealer is no longer responsible to the customer if the attribution turns out to be wrong; the customers needs to go to the authentication entity to get their money back.  Yes, you're right again. 

 

You also suggest, I think, that this independent authentication entity may feel no compulsion to return any money, since the authentication entity didn't sell the instrument.  That may indeed be a problem for which I don't know the solution. 

 

Just to state the problem clearly, in a system in which violin authentication (and attribution) is separate from violin sales, how do we make the authentication entity responsible for its errors?  How do customers get their money back in cases of authentication and attribution error? 

 

I believe the fine arts market is set up with separate entities of authentication and sales.  How do they resolve this?  Anybody know?

[Stephen Faulk]

 

 

I believe the fine arts market is set up with separate entities of authentication and sales.  How do they resolve this?  Anybody know?

 It is and it is not. There's also the possibility of conflict, abuse of power and authority. One thing that happens is that a work of art is authenticated and it may not be an original. But as an authenticated "Something or other" the value goes up. When the value goes up a collector may purchase the item because a higher value piece is a bigger tax write off if they donate to a museum. The conflict of interest arises when the expert that authenticates the work is also a curator of the museum receiving the donation. 

 

 

To cite on example of complexity. There's a famous case of this having happened in Boston with a Sung Dynasty landscape painting.  A journalist wrote an expose' of this in a popular antiques magazine and he was drummed out of the access to write further about museums and the practices of acquisitions and authentications. No one in the business wanted to talk to this professional journalist to after that, even though it was a truthfully researched and vetted piece of investigative journalism. 

 

There are examples of other kinds of authentication scenarios; the art world makes the violin world look really good by comparison. One big difference is that violins can speak for themselves as tools.  

[jezzupe]

Ben,

 

Concerning your first paragraph, I was not proposing anything different than what you seem willing to accept: the freedom "to put out a strong hypothesis only for it to be proven wrong by subsequent research."  I'm not asking for anything different than that for violin research.

 

I assume that serious researchers don't propose a hypothesis without some belief that there's a good chance it's true, and thus pursue support.   Thus I was not suggesting that any kind of nonsense is worth considering as a hypothesis, if that's what you were concerned about.  But I do believe that hypotheses should be allowed in any field, even if the hypotheses put a strain on traditional beliefs.

 

I get the feeling that in the violin field, hypotheses that contradict traditional beliefs aren't readily accepted for consideration.  A good example is one we've already discussed.  In 1902 the Hills had everyone believing that Stradivari worked without substantial help.  That belief was so firmly planted that only very recently has there been challenges.

 

Concerning your second paragraph:  I need to paraphrase what I think you are stating because I may be misunderstanding.  It seems I am proposing that there would be benefits if authentication could be separated from selling, benefits like more trust in the authentication.  Yes, that is what I was thinking.  You point out, if I'm understanding correctly, that such a separation would mean that the dealer is no longer responsible to the customer if the attribution turns out to be wrong; the customers needs to go to the authentication entity to get their money back.  Yes, you're right again. 

 

You also suggest, I think, that this independent authentication entity may feel no compulsion to return any money, since the authentication entity didn't sell the instrument.  That may indeed be a problem for which I don't know the solution. 

 

Just to state the problem clearly, in a system in which violin authentication (and attribution) is separate from violin sales, how do we make the authentication entity responsible for its errors?  How do customers get their money back in cases of authentication and attribution error? 

 

I believe the fine arts market is set up with separate entities of authentication and sales.  How do they resolve this?  Anybody know?

"how do we make the authentication entity responsible for its errors?  How do customers get their money back in cases of authentication and attribution error?"

 

Ski, come now, I thought you've been at the game long enough to know about...."the violin police!" we self govern in a pure blissful state of true anarchy....why just the other day when that "stillnew" person had an issue, I saw David "the shadow" Burgess don the tights and offer to come to the rescue and right the wrong, in a way that only Powdered toast man could even come close to.

[skiingfiddler]

I'm afraid I'm of the view that everything that can actually be taught in this syllabus would fit on about 4 Wikipedia pages.

Identification or attribution is a skill which requires natural talent and exposure to thousands (at least) of instruments.

The attribution of value (otherwise known as pricing) is a movable feast which happens in a commercial arena.

So we're kind of left with "history of the violin", which is clearly of very limited importance to the majority of violinists, and about which there are many excellent books.

 

I just don't get it. Stephen, I don't suppose you have by any chance been taken advantage of in the purchase of an antique violin? If so, you have my sympathies, but I think you should be encouraging transparency in the retail arena, not creating a further brood of ill-informed Strad-worshippers.

 

Martin,

I doubt one could cover the topics I proposed in 4 printed pages, if one realizes that we may be dealing with a completely naive audience.  I think you'd need 4 printed pages, maybe more, for just topic 1.

 

More importantly, a classroom setting for these topics would allow for the students to participate in the learning process far more than printed pages or videos would allow. 

 

For example, let's take the issue of pricing high end instruments.  If we accept the standards of the violin trade, one could in one sentence describe the role of tone in that price:  Tone plays an unimportant role, if any, in the pricing of high end violins, because tone is too subjective to attribute a price to; one person's good tone is presumably another person's bad.  In our class of a dozen or two string players, there may be doubts about the subjectivity of tone.  (I rather doubt it, myself.)  We could offer the class the chance to test the supposed subjectivity of tone by bringing in a handful of high end instruments similar in their provenances, having them played, and seeing how this audience with some musical skills rates the instruments in tone. If the audience can't agree or nearly agree which instruments sound better than others, then tone is subjective, and the violin trade is correct in relegating it to the  less important.  However if the audience can agree or nearly agree which instruments sound better than the others, then there's some objectivity to tone quality, and a violin buyer might want to place a higher value on tone than the violin trade does.

 

Concerning promoting transparency in the retail arena, that's a great idea and in keeping with the spirit of this thread.  You probably have more to contribute there than I do.  Pleas feel free to do that.

[Conor Russell]

 

 

For example, let's take the issue of pricing high end instruments.  If we accept the standards of the violin trade, one could in one sentence describe the role of tone in that price:  Tone plays an unimportant role, if any, in the pricing of high end violins, because tone is too subjective to attribute a price to; one person's good tone is presumably another person's bad.  In our class of a dozen or two string players, there may be doubts about the subjectivity of tone.  (I rather doubt it, myself.)  We could offer the class the chance to test the supposed subjectivity of tone by bringing in a handful of high end instruments similar in their provenances, having them played, and seeing how this audience with some musical skills rates the instruments in tone. If the audience can't agree or nearly agree which instruments sound better than others, then tone is subjective, and the violin trade is correct in relegating it to the  less important.  However if the audience can agree or nearly agree which instruments sound better than the others, then there's some objectivity to tone quality, and a violin buyer might want to place a higher value on tone than the violin trade does.

 

While this might be interesting, the teachers would surely be wise to advise the students that their consensus on the tonal qualities of the violins should not be given too much weight. Tone is very subject to fashion, and their future clients would risk loosing their shirts if the fashion changed.

 

By the way, most of the real rip offs I see are down to teachers making some serious money on the side, through corrupt commissions, or just teachers with big egos, who feel the need be seen as the experts, advise the student, and then fall out with any makers who questions the advice they give.

 

It's really very dangerous to instill distrust of the violin trade in players. Most of us are as honest as we can be, give the best advice we can, and actually know what we're talking about. This is how we make our livings. Players need us.

[Conor Russell]

oops

[martin swan]

 

 

8. I know a LARGE number of Scottish people. That begs the question : how many times can the three cows inhabiting Scotland be stolen ? 

 

I think you misheard the joke - how many times can the three cows inhabiting Scotland be sold.

Not to mention the tree fellers from Connemara who went to work in British Columbia ...

 

Ski, I agree with Conor, you are taking an overwhelmingly one-sided view of the violin trade. 

 

[Stephen Faulk]

The main reason trying to teach violin market valuation skills in a university is  a problematic idea is that it is a specialty that requires daily practice. 

I was exposed to a great many very high end instruments when I was in my late teens and early twenties because I had a friend who was a small time 'horse trader' a good collector. He knew all the main dealers and collectors in Northern and Southern California and took me with him on trips to visit them.  I was lucky to have seen a great many wonderful instruments in this way. But unless you do this day in, day out and keep it up over the years your knowledge degrades. It's a full time job to keep your eyes and ears in practice in evaluating for the market. I wager I've seen more fine instruments than a student undergoing a course would be able to see, but at this point it does not matter because I did not or was not able to keep up the specific knowledge over the years after my mentor was not able to grandfather me along. The practice of evaluation on a daily basis is what is needed to keep up an astute and honest knowledge. 

 

A course would provide some background, but the service of a daily practitioner of evaluation would remain indispensable to a serious buyer. 

[skiingfiddler]

 It is and it is not. There's also the possibility of conflict, abuse of power and authority. One thing that happens is that a work of art is authenticated and it may not be an original. But as an authenticated "Something or other" the value goes up. When the value goes up a collector may purchase the item because a higher value piece is a bigger tax write off if they donate to a museum. The conflict of interest arises when the expert that authenticates the work is also a curator of the museum receiving the donation. 

 

 

To cite on example of complexity. There's a famous case of this having happened in Boston with a Sung Dynasty landscape painting.  A journalist wrote an expose' of this in a popular antiques magazine and he was drummed out of the access to write further about museums and the practices of acquisitions and authentications. No one in the business wanted to talk to this professional journalist to after that, even though it was a truthfully researched and vetted piece of investigative journalism. 

 

There are examples of other kinds of authentication scenarios; the art world makes the violin world look really good by comparison. One big difference is that violins can speak for themselves as tools.  

 

Thanks for that reply.  It sounds like a conflict of interest would arise if the eventual receiver of the art work were also the authenticator/appraiser.  That seems like a rather limited situation. 

 

Does it ever happen in the art world that the authenticator/appraiser is also the seller? 

 

When one of the big auction houses sells a mega-million dollar painting, who is the authenticator/appraiser for that painting?

 

I've lumped authenticator and appraiser together out of ignorance of how the art market works.  I'm looking for a term for the person who decides that some work of art is a genuine such and so (my "authenticator") vs the person who puts a price on the object once it's been labeled a genuine such and so (my "appraiser").  Can that be the same person?  Also, just to repeat my question from above, in the art world, I assume that the person selling the object can be neither the authenticator nor the appraiser; is that right?

 

Sorry for all the questions.  Any answers would be appreciated.

 

The main reason trying to teach violin market valuation skills in a university is  a problematic idea is that it is a specialty that requires daily practice. 

I was exposed to a great many very high end instruments when I was in my late teens and early twenties because I had a friend who was a small time 'horse trader' a good collector. He knew all the main dealers and collectors in Northern and Southern California and took me with him on trips to visit them.  I was lucky to have seen a great many wonderful instruments in this way. But unless you do this day in, day out and keep it up over the years your knowledge degrades. It's a full time job to keep your eyes and ears in practice in evaluating for the market. I wager I've seen more fine instruments than a student undergoing a course would be able to see, but at this point it does not matter because I did not or was not able to keep up the specific knowledge over the years after my mentor was not able to grandfather me along. The practice of evaluation on a daily basis is what is needed to keep up an astute and honest knowledge. 

 

A course would provide some background, but the service of a daily practitioner of evaluation would remain indispensable to a serious buyer. 

 

Stephen,

 

The introductory course I have in mind, as outlined above some posts back, is not intended to give the student any great expertise.  It is not intended as a replacement for finding a competent dealer.  The introductory course, insofar as it deals with violin buying, would do the following:

 

-- It would make clear that the main price determining feature of an old violin is provenance (where provenance includes origin as well ownership history).

-- It would make clear that tonal qualities are of lesser importance, if of any importance at all, in determining the price of an old violin.

-- If the student has as a primary interest other qualities than provenance, such as tone, then that student needs to keep that in mind in their violin search and what he's hearing from dealers, and indeed needs to share that information with the dealer so that the dealer can focus on tone rather than provenance.

--It would give the student some guidelines in looking for a competent dealer.

 

I don't disagree at all with Conor's statement in his last post: "Most of us [in the violin trade, including dealers] are as honest as we can be, give the best advice we can, and actually know what we're talking about. This is how we make our livings. Players need us."

 

In advising the typical violin student about buying a violin, advice in that introductory course would include:

--Stay away from buying violins in pawn shops, second hand stores, ebay and classified ads where the seller is an "I know nothing about violins and I'm selling this violin as is" person.  If, as someone rather untrained in violins and the violin market, you do buy in any of those situations, don't spend more than fun money, money you are willing to throw away for the fun it brought you to throw it away.  The value of your purchase is very likely zero.

--Find a competent and trustworthy dealer for your purchase.  A description of how to do that could go on for pages. Let me say, that if I were buying an instrument from anybody other than directly from the maker of an instrument I want, I'd buy from a trusted dealer.

[martin swan]

The introductory course I have in mind, as outlined above some posts back, is not intended to give the student any great expertise.  It is not intended as a replacement for finding a competent dealer.  The introductory course, insofar as it deals with violin buying, would do the following:

 

-- It would make clear that the main price determining feature of an old violin is provenance (where provenance includes origin as well ownership history).

-- It would make clear that tonal qualities are of lesser importance, if of any importance at all, in determining the price of an old violin.

-- If the student has as a primary interest other qualities than provenance, such as tone, then that student needs to keep that in mind in their violin search and what he's hearing from dealers, and indeed needs to share that information with the dealer so that the dealer can focus on tone rather than provenance.

--It would give the student some guidelines in looking for a competent dealer.

 

I don't disagree at all with Conor's statement in his last post: "Most of us [in the violin trade, including dealers] are as honest as we can be, give the best advice we can, and actually know what we're talking about. This is how we make our livings. Players need us."

 

In advising the typical violin student about buying a violin, advice in that introductory course would include:

--Stay away from buying violins in pawn shops, second hand stores, ebay and classified ads where the seller is an "I know nothing about violins and I'm selling this violin as is" person.  If, as someone rather untrained in violins and the violin market, you do buy in any of those situations, don't spend more than fun money, money you are willing to throw away for the fun it brought you to throw it away.  The value of your purchase is very likely zero.

--Find a competent and trustworthy dealer for your purchase.  A description of how to do that could go on for pages. Let me say, that if I were buying an instrument from anybody other than directly from the maker of an instrument I want, I'd buy from a trusted dealer.

 

It seems to me that you have covered the entire matter quite satisfactorily in a few sentences. Perhaps the university component could be strapping violin students to electrodes and getting the to repeat these various mantras until they fall asleep, at which point a mid-sized shock could be administered.

 

The only issue here which is even remotely nuanced is "find a competent and trustworthy dealer" - surely you must see that this is not the role of a university course, and can only lead to greater abuse of the already dangerous links between violin-teaching institutions and violin dealers?

 

Why don't you start your own "consumer blog", maybe on YouTube? This would be do-able and potentially effective - that's how people get consumer advice these days. If such a blog or internet-based article was rational and helpful to general understanding, I'm sure dealers who wish to encourage transparency and fair play would refer customers to it.

[jacobsaunders]

Thanks for that reply.  It sounds like a conflict of interest would arise if the eventual receiver of the art work were also the authenticator/appraiser.  That seems like a rather limited situation. 

 

Does it ever happen in the art world that the authenticator/appraiser is also the seller? 

 

When one of the big auction houses sells a mega-million dollar painting, who is the authenticator/appraiser for that painting?

 

I've lumped authenticator and appraiser together out of ignorance of how the art market works.  I'm looking for a term for the person who decides that some work of art is a genuine such and so (my "authenticator") vs the person who puts a price on the object once it's been labeled a genuine such and so (my "appraiser").  Can that be the same person?  Also, just to repeat my question from above, in the art world, I assume that the person selling the object can be neither the authenticator nor the appraiser; is that right?

 

Sorry for all the questions.  Any answers would be appreciated.

Dear Ski,

I think you suffer under a serious misunderstanding re. who or what an “authenticator/appraiser” could be. This is governed here by paragraph 1299 of the Allgemein Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch, which has been the law since 1811, and presumably will be for centuries to come. Since you understand German, here is a link:

https://www.jusline.at/index.php?cpid=ba688068a8c8a95352ed951ddb88783e&lawid=1&paid=1299

I realise that the US has a different legal tradition, but usually the same comes out of the back.

To translate concisely, anyone who considers himself to be knowledgeable enough in his field, can “authenticate” things, but will have to take responsibility for any shortcomings of his stated opinion. There is no god like personality that can authenticate everything with 100% certainty, so you will have to make a judgement yourself if you can trust this individual. Should you not trust an individual, then you can always ask someone else for a 3rd opinion. An appraiser can of course, double as a vendor, and often does.

[skiingfiddler]

It seems to me that you have covered the entire matter quite satisfactorily in a few sentences. Perhaps the university component could be strapping violin students to electrodes and getting the to repeat these various mantras until they fall asleep, at which point a mid-sized shock could be administered.

 

 

I don't believe that the best teaching is done by standing up in front of students and expressing one sentence "truths" that the teacher has concluded are absolutes.  If the students don't participate in arriving at some understanding, then you will indeed need the electrodes shocking them to stay awake.

 

How could a teacher engage students to think about the relationship between provenance and pricing?  One revealing way would be to look at cases in which provenance has changed and consider the price effects.  Recently, a post on Maestronet noted that a supposed Villaume was discovered to be a Strad.  In another instance, we've had a whole Maestronet thread reporting that a supposed Hungarian violin turned out, through expert re-evaluation, to be a del Gesu.  Farther in the past, we've had a whole set of violins, those of Lorenzo Guadagnini, needing rebranding because Lorenzo wasn't a maker.  We've had a cello, which the trade had for considerable time regarded as a Joseph filius Andrea Guarneri be re-evaluated as a del Gesu.  You have violins coming from the Guarneri shop in the late 1710s which the English view as filius Andrea Guarneris and the Americans view as del Gesus.

 

Thus some instruments have changed provenance radically or they're viewed as having different provenances by different sides of the Atlantic.  What happens to the price of those instruments?  Maybe there are published prices on some of those instruments, although I doubt it.  But one might arrive at the possible price change by looking at recent selling prices of the various groups.  Having students look for recent prices of, say, Strads and Vuillaumes and concluding what happens to a violin's price when it changes from a Vuillaume to a Strad would be an excellent homework assignment.

 

Incidentally, the whole effort might also show how fluid provenance can be.

 

 

 

The only issue here which is even remotely nuanced is "find a competent and trustworthy dealer" - surely you must see that this is not the role of a university course, and can only lead to greater abuse of the already dangerous links between violin-teaching institutions and violin dealers?

 

 

Don't business schools at universities have courses on banking practices and how they affect the public? I think that the qualities you want to look for in a violin shop would be entirely appropriate for a university course about the violin trade.  One wouldn't have to name names, just talk about what the qualities are of a good shop.  A discussion of the practice of commissions from dealers to teachers who send their students to the dealer needs to be in the course.  I think it's worth revealing that it has occurred in the past, and maybe it's still going on.  How can the student deal with that? 

 

You could name names if the information is in the public domain, as in instances of criminal prosecution.

 

Your last point is:

 

"Why don't you start your own "consumer blog", maybe on YouTube? This would be do-able and potentially effective - that's how people get consumer advice these days. If such a blog or internet-based article was rational and helpful to general understanding, I'm sure dealers who wish to encourage transparency and fair play would refer customers to it."

 

That sounds like a great idea for someone with more knowledge of blogs, more energy and ambition than I have.  I'm still working on losing weight.

[David Burgess]

 

That sounds like a great idea for someone with more knowledge of blogs, more energy and ambition than I have.  I'm still working on losing weight.

I believe that's how the university idea sounds to the rest of us.

[skiingfiddler]

I believe that's how the university idea sounds to the rest of us.

 

You would definitely have to start small, one course directed at string players to satisfy the needs of string players.

 

David,

 

If this thread has caused people to think that the university idea is a good one but hard to implement, then that's a great improvement over treating the idea with the derision it once got.