martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Some excellent posts from you on this thread, Martin. Not sure about this, though.... Pre about 1895 Collin-Mézins - should have qualified it! Post 1900 there are some real rotters ...
David Burgess Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Why it can not be a "good violin" for $5000 ? Why can't it be a really good violin for $5000? I don't know. Ask the people who make $5000 violins what's up with that.
Stephen Faulk Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 One word : McDonalds Unversity. Un-versity? Is that where you go to unlearn stuff?
uncle duke Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Ask the people who make $5000 violins what's up with that. There's no merit in having a surplus of playable wall art.
martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Why can't it be a really good violin for $5000? I don't know. Ask the people who make $5000 violins what's up with that. We make a lot of $5000 violins. Very few are really good, but it does happen occasionally. The general output is very good, and if a violin isn't very good but simply good, we sell it for significantly less (about $3000). I think that where a great maker scores is in consistency - this must I suppose be to do with using the right combinations of wood and model for that particular maker's "feel", and with keeping one's eye constantly on the ball about all aspects of each instruments. With someone like David I imagine it also helps a lot to be a more than competent player, and to have a clear tonal goal and an accurate image of the sort of person who might buy that violin. A high profile maker will also most likely have superb wood skills and will present something faultless - we don't put any energy into varnish and I would not pretend that our violins are beautiful or in any way special aesthetically. Where we score is that not every violin has to be great - we can experiment quickly with models, arching, and materials. Though generally, the more I leave Fritz to do his own thing, the better the violins are ...
Carl Stross Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 We make a lot of $5000 violins. Very few are really good, but it does happen occasionally. The general output is very good, and if a violin isn't very good but simply good, we sell it for significantly less (about $3000). Could you put a sound sample on YT if it's not too much trouble ? I never heard a Scottish violin.
Johnmasters Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Why can't it be a really good violin for $5000? I don't know. Ask the people who make $5000 violins what's up with that. If there were such a university, graduates ought to be happy with a $50 an hour job. Can't you make a violin in 100 hours? At least if you made several at a time? (I used to make three at a time because of how many clamps I had, etc.) I used to get about this 20 years ago. But I never promoted. At the time, I did not have varnishes the way I wanted them. I got comments from VSA judges such as "nice work ruined by a poor varnish." I am sure standards have risen in workmanship because I have seen impeccable examples at later VSA constests. I would not want to take the time to enter again. But to answer your question, some people would say "I don't want a $5000 violin, I want a $15000 violin". It is hard to get people to take the time to play one in. (And I figure about a year of hard playing is OK for much of breaking-in I have played new violas, at least, in orchestras and found that a year makes a big difference. And don't ask me about my ear's memory.) I did have a "standard" as I was sitting with other players around me. I could judge the instrument from that environment.
martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Could you put a sound sample on YT if it's not too much trouble ? I never heard a Scottish violin. Matthew Hardie, Alex Smillie, John Raeburn, James Briggs etc, these are Scottish violins. Our violins are made in Reghin, varnished in Budapest, and set up in Scotland - they really don't qualify as Scottish. I have a James Hardie and an Alex Smillie which you would be welcome to come and try, but a YT clip will tell you absolutely nothing and I refuse point blank to use "sound samples" unless a customer requests comparative recordings of a couple of instruments. Even then, I do my best to explain that the information will prove 90% useless. Incidentally, I have played one of John Masters' violas - I genuinely thought it was excellent. So I always listen when he talks.
skiingfiddler Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 There are lots of posts above that deserve a thoughtful response. But before the idea slips away, it would be helpful to outline a course, called "Violin Essentials," cribbing a bit from Rue, which would be taught at the university, especially targeted toward string majors, but also open to anyone interested in the violin. This would be a 16 week, full semester course, meeting 1 to 3 hours a week. Violin Essentials, an outline of topics to cover: 1. Maintenance Essentials: a. Keeping the bridge upright. b. Winding strings on pegs. c. Doping pegs. d. The varnish: Do nothing! e. Mounting a chinrest. f. Inspecting your instrument; looking for open seams and cracks. g. Selecting a repairer. This would be a one maybe 2 hour session at the very beginning of the semester. 2. History of the violin: The anatomy of the violin and a very superficial explanation of building using an inside mold. Emphasis on the modernization in the 19th century. Focus on 4 essential models: Maggini, Nicolo Amati grand pattern, Stradivari post 1700, Late del Gesu. The treatment of these models would be very superficial, looking at general outline and maybe arching a bit. 3. The "standard" dimensions of today's violins. The typical dimensions of today's violas, cellos, and basses. How to take measurements of back length and widths, neck length, body stop, string clearance over fingerboard, bridge height. How important is it to get a violin of the "standard" dimensions? 4. The violin market --a. Today's prices of the 4 models, above, as authentic violins. --b. Factors in pricing: Provenance, condition. The role of tone. Antique vs contemporary prices. --c. Authentication and Certificates. Who does it. What a certificate contains. The value of older certificates. --d. Buying and selling your violin: Old vs new in buying, pros and cons. Buying "as is," from pawn shops, ebay, garage sales, etc, vs a dealer. Wholesale vs retail prices. Consignment selling. Commission you can expect to pay in selling. I think this course might attract violin amateurs as well as violin majors and just some people who don't play but who are interested in violins. Frankly, if we want to get a violin knowledge curriculum into the university, we have to start small with one course, and I think the course outlined above would be that course. Depending on the interest and success of this course, one could introduce another course, perhaps under art history: The violin models of 16th, 17th, and 18th century Cremona, Brescia, Venice and Stainer. This would be a full semester course, at least 3 hours a week, looking at Andrea Amati, the Brothers Amati, Nicolo Amati (small and large pattern), Maggini and da Salo, Stainer, Stradivari (Amatise, Long Pattern, post 1700), Andrea Guarneri, Joseph filius Andrea, del Gesu (early, middle and late), the Venetians with their Stainer and Cremona influence. Hope one semester is enough. Might have to leave Venice for another course. You get the idea, which is to introduce one course, gauge interest, and introduce one more, then another, then another until you've covered violin history in classical Italy and the rest of Europe up to the present time. One could also introduce courses in "the science of the violin" looking at problems in physics, acoustics, chemistry, wood dating, physiology of playing, psychology of aural perception, etc, the same way. The idea is to build from the ground up, one course at a time, not top down. We don't want, in one fell swoop, to propose and impose some 12 course degree program leading to some degree. The university administrators will reject such a proposal. But building curriculum, one course at a time, as student interest shows itself, could lead, in a natural and organic way, to a full curriculum.
James M. Jones Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Hmmm, Why Maggini? and not DaSalo? I agree the subject is fascinating, and am all for learning in general , but really wonder at the validity of any sort of degree program in violinoligy, PHD level work. I mean I enjoy them as much as anyone , but I do always feel a bit foolish standing in a room full of doctors, lawyers, politicians, grant writers, ect ...subjects that truly need the rigors of academia and serve critical functions in society. In a way we have addressed the "problems" in the violin world with organizations like VSA, the Schools and forums , there is now more credible information and research programs and projects than ever before. We only have to be good students to learn along with practice. my two cents.
jacobsaunders Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 They only have Italian violins in Idaho then (I see you have co-opted Stainer)
David Burgess Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 OK, Ski, it's now evident that you've given the idea some work and thought. Next on your agenda might be looking into the Indiana University program (the most extensive program I'm of aware of at the University level), and look at the outcomes, (such as employment advantages to participants, and advantages to string players), and from that, try to determine what should be retained, and what should be improved. One could also compare that with outcomes from the "violinmaking" schools. As others have said before, I don't really think it's possible to obtain much identification expertise (regardless of the environment) in two to six years. Sure, we occasionally have aces who can bend the average a little bit.
skiingfiddler Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 They only have Italian violins in Idaho then (I see you have co-opted Stainer) Yes, Stainer is left out of that introductory course. There would be very limited time in that course to devote to models. The idea in that course would be to get a very general idea of different models in terms of outline, maybe get students thinking about visual differences in models. Stainer is included in the proposed second course.
skiingfiddler Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 OK, Ski, it's now evident that you've given the idea some work and thought. Next on your agenda might be looking into the Indiana University program (the most extensive program I'm of aware of at the University level), and look at the outcomes, employment advantages, and from that, try to determine what should be retained, and what should be improved. One could also compare that with outcomes from the "violinmaking" schools. As others have said before, I don't really think it's possible to obtain much identification expertise (regardless of the environment) in two to six years. Sure, we occasionally have aces who can bend the average a little bit. David, You're right, Indiana University would be worth a look to see what's going on there and if that's successful. But what I'm proposing as an introductory course is one that could be implemented anywhere there is a music school with a fairly large number of string players. This introductory course would be offered for meeting the needs of those string players. And those needs are immediate ones of maintaining an instrument and understanding the violin market. The course is not designed to make a student who takes it more employable, it's designed to help, at the personal level, with the practical aspects of acquiring, owning a violin, and selling a violin. If a university did nothing more than implement such an introductory course and never went beyond that, that still would be a service to string majors and others at the university interested in violins.
jacobsaunders Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 And you expect ”impartial expertise” from students after that bun fight.BTW it is building systems you need to learn to tell any 17th & 18th C stuff apart, not “Models”. The different “Models” were more something from the 19th C industry, where they made all of the cited ones everywhere.Does "Mounting a chinrest" last a whole semester?
martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 I'm afraid I'm of the view that everything that can actually be taught in this syllabus would fit on about 4 Wikipedia pages. Identification or attribution is a skill which requires natural talent and exposure to thousands (at least) of instruments. The attribution of value (otherwise known as pricing) is a movable feast which happens in a commercial arena. So we're kind of left with "history of the violin", which is clearly of very limited importance to the majority of violinists, and about which there are many excellent books. I just don't get it. Stephen, I don't suppose you have by any chance been taken advantage of in the purchase of an antique violin? If so, you have my sympathies, but I think you should be encouraging transparency in the retail arena, not creating a further brood of ill-informed Strad-worshippers.
Carl Stross Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 1. Matthew Hardie, Alex Smillie, John Raeburn, James Briggs etc, these are Scottish violins. Our violins are made in Reghin, varnished in Budapest, and set up in Scotland - they really don't qualify as Scottish. 2. a YT clip will tell you absolutely nothing 1. My mistake - I thought they were made in Scotland. 2. Opinion is divided here but I understand you don't want comparisons. Thank you for the invite but I couldn't try anything - I don't play.
martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 2. Opinion is divided here but I understand you don't want comparisons. This has nothing to do with Skiingfiddler's thread, but you are of course wilfully misunderstanding me. I invite comparisons - in fact if you read back you will see that I offered to have a blind shoot-out with a Burgess. If you want to hear someone playing one of our violins, you could try any recordings by Jani Lang, Rona Wilkie, or Morag Brown. They are all traditional musicians (Hungarian or Scottish), so this may be beyond the call of duty for you. Of course you couldn't expect to learn anything about the quality of a violin unless it's Paganini, but have at it anyway. For instance about 7.20 here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZo7tEcSP74 Or some moody Hungarian club sounds : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=watgzlKB8zM Or this, guaranteed to pucker your orifices : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv3Jx5xn174 Lots of lovely Greek music here : https://soundcloud.com/morag-brown Sorry Ski - hope you like the gig from Szeged!
David Burgess Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Where I am a starting medical doctor earns about $4000 per month. That is very hard work and takes a lot of years and a lot of brain to learn to do it. A typical violin has around $500 to $1000 in materials. Why are we not seing more $5000 violins ? I do not think a experienced maker needs more than two weeks to make one. Why can't it be a really good violin for $5000? I don't know. Ask the people who make $5000 violins what's up with that. Our violins are made in Reghin, varnished in Budapest, and set up in Scotland - they really don't qualify as Scottish. OK, so your $5000 violins might be loosely described as "factory" violins. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it might go a little way towards answering Dan's questions.
Carl Stross Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 OK, so your $5000 violins might be loosely described as "factory" violins. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it might go a little way towards answering Dan's questions. I wouldn't use the word factory - it's more of a gypsy trek.
Carl Stross Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 This has nothing to do with Skiingfiddler's thread, but you are of course wilfully misunderstanding me. I invite comparisons - in fact if you read back you will see that I offered to have a blind shoot-out with a Burgess. If you want to hear someone playing one of our violins, you could try any recordings by Jani Lang, Rona Wilkie, or Morag Brown. They are all traditional musicians (Hungarian or Scottish), so this may be beyond the call of duty for you. Of course you couldn't expect to learn anything about the quality of a violin unless it's Paganini, but have at it anyway. For instance about 7.20 here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZo7tEcSP74 Or some moody Hungarian club sounds : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=watgzlKB8zM Or this, guaranteed to pucker your orifices : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv3Jx5xn174 Lots of lovely Greek music here : https://soundcloud.com/morag-brown Sorry Ski - hope you like the gig from Szeged! Thank you.
martin swan Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 OK, so your $5000 violins might be loosely described as "factory" violins. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it might go a little way towards answering Dan's questions. If a factory is one master maker in his mid 60s who's been making violins for 40 years without a single machine, then I suppose so ... I think "trade" violins is more accurate, as well as more respectful, and I don't see how dan_s's question is answered in any way. I have great respect for the way you work, I have made that clear - our violins have no special pretensions beyond value for money when it comes to sound quality. Why be snide? As for Carl's racism - can do without that. What has anything to do with gypsies? There are a lot of Roma in Reghin, and a lot of non-Roma Hungarians too. I work with both, though Fritz happens not to be Roma. Or perhaps I misunderstood - wouldn't want to seem touchy! Maybe he's just trying to say I do a lot of travelling ...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now