A university setting for violin knowledge

[martin swan]

Ok you're slightly missing the irony ...

I think you also missed the later part of my post :

 

So Stephen, what do you make of Jacob's point about appraisers? We are talking about certified appraisers, such as Jacob himself or Jeffrey. You have to admit that your general thrust is quite insulting to such people. I can't see how you would get anything other than a straightforward appraisal if you took a violin that you owned to such a person ...

 

Or are you concerned about the lack of an independent review body for items you're thinking of buying? That is of course a whole other matter, and I don't think a university is ever going to help with that.

[jacobsaunders]

I've come to the conclusion that paying for a violin based on its origins and provenance is not worth doing.  On old violins, designated origins and provenance are the most insecure, potentially changeable characteristics of the instrument.  Yet the major determiner of the cost of an instrument is origin and provenance.

 

On the other hand, I can, for myself, judge tone.  I can for myself decide whether I like the appearance.  I can find a large number of makers and repairers within a day's drive even from isolated Idaho whom I trust to tell me if a violin is well made or not and what kind of condition it's in and what kind of repairs it needs.  All of those characteristics are clearly in front of me.  Origin and provenance of an old violin are ephemeral, possibly mythical, in my mind, unverifiable, and I'm not going to pay for it.  I'm not going to put origin and provenance at the top of my list as a reason for buying a specific instrument.  With that frame of mind, the most troublesome part of appraising -- origin and provenance -- disappears, and the group of people who can give me an appraisal that I value is quite accessible.

 

But that's me, and I realize that the violin trade and many buyers aren't of that frame of mind.

 

In Martin Swan's dichotomy of viewing the violin as a tool (a visually pleasing one, well made, in good condition, in addition to pleasing tone) vs violin as an investment shopper, I lean toward looking at it as a tool.

You are just the sort of smart alec, that is destined to buy himself some junk for far too much money. This is because you are inpervious to advice, and if you came to me with the attitude, that I wouldn’t tell you the truth anyway, I would be most likely to just tell you to fuck off.

[duane88]

 

 

In Martin Swan's dichotomy of viewing the violin as a tool (a visually pleasing one, well made, in good condition, in addition to pleasing tone) vs violin as an investment shopper, I lean toward looking at it as a tool. 

 

 

If more people purchased them as tools, we would all be better off!

 

It's a tool until you want to sell it, and therein lies the problem.

[Ben Hebbert]

I don't suppose that the terminal logic of this has been considered by Steven. If you have a university department that both provides expert opinions and trains up experts for the future, those experts will be out of a job by definition of the assumption that only a university opinion is valid. This amuses me somewhat.

 

Where I feel we are at is the issue is one of impartiality. But what of the fundamental principle in law of 'Fiduciary Duty'. If a client pays me for the service of rendering an expert opinion on an instrument, then my lawful obligation when I have accepted the fee, is to work solely in the interests of my client. To not do that would be illegal, as it would be for me not to declare whatever interests I might have on the instrument in question. Alternatively, for an agreed fee, I would be extremely happy to work on their behalf to find an instrument in the market from another party and provide my expert opinion subject to the statutes of fiduciary duty. 

 

The problem is that gentlemen such as Steven prove themselves generally unwilling to pay for additional services, and would rather bitch about the perceived untrustworthyness of the trade at the same time as demanding pro-bono access to years of accumulated experience. So a business model giving fair and impartial advice is a non starter. 

 

Does Steven seriously think that a university would provide this kind of information for free? That would be a fundamental misapprehension about the economic pressures of the academic world. 

[Carl Stross]

 I actually broke off from doing exactly that (trying a higher bridge on a violin) in order to post here - the higher bridge did exactly what I expected/wanted it to, thanks very much. 

 

 

And the next higher ? 

[Ben Hebbert]

On the other hand, I can, for myself, judge tone.  I can for myself decide whether I like the appearance.  I can find a large number of makers and repairers within a day's drive even from isolated Idaho whom I trust to tell me if a violin is well made or not and what kind of condition it's in and what kind of repairs it needs.  

 

Trust them, Steven, but how can they possibly be trusted if they haven't got that university qualification?

[Carl Stross]

Trust them, Steven, but how can they possibly be trusted if they haven't got that university qualification?

 

Good shot !

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

Origin and provenance of an old violin are ephemeral, possibly mythical, in my mind, unverifiable, and I'm not going to pay for it.  I'm not going to put origin and provenance at the top of my list as a reason for buying a specific instrument.  With that frame of mind, the most troublesome part of appraising -- origin and provenance -- disappears.

 

 

It's good to know ones limitations, Ski. Think I'll go back to work now.

[skiingfiddler]

You are just the sort of smart alec, that is destined to buy himself some junk for far too much money. This is because you are inpervious to advice, and if you came to me with the attitude, that I wouldn’t tell you the truth anyway, I would be most likely to just tell you to fuck off.

 

Well, now I know not to bother coming to you.  I guess that invitation, in the thread about Stainer, to show me around the Kunst Historisches Museum in Vienna no longer stands.  Being nice to me was a lot easier for you when I agreed with you in your disagreement with Ben Hebbert.  My positions are always dependent on what the substance of people's posts are, not who they are.  So, take heart.  I may agree with you again, and disagree with whomever you're disagreeing with (assuming that I believe in your position), and you can like me again.

[skiingfiddler]

Ok you're slightly missing the irony ...

I think you also missed the later part of my post :

 

So Stephen, what do you make of Jacob's point about appraisers? We are talking about certified appraisers, such as Jacob himself or Jeffrey. You have to admit that your general thrust is quite insulting to such people. I can't see how you would get anything other than a straightforward appraisal if you took a violin that you owned to such a person ...

 

Or are you concerned about the lack of an independent review body for items you're thinking of buying? That is of course a whole other matter, and I don't think a university is ever going to help with that.

 

The most important features for me about a violin is its tone, its appearance, the care and craft in its initial construction, its current state, the cost of any additional repairs, and its price.   If Jeffrey would help me in that kind of comparison, and I definitely do need help with the quality of construction and current state,  and I thought the charges for his services were fair, he'd be at the top of my list if our proximities were favorable.  I am not going to pay extra for information on provenance.  Provenance doesn't change the playing qualities of the fiddle one bit, but provenance itself might change over time.  Jacob could be helpful in the same manner, but I doubt he wants to be.

[Rue]

Well...Jacob needs to work on his bedside manner...

 

...and I don't see a problem with paying for an antique if that's what you want...

 

And that's what an old violin is - an antique.  If it comes with a provenance that increases it's value...what's wrong with that?  You see that all the time in the antiques and collectibles market...

 

If your interest is tone and playability...that's available too.  We've established that once you get past a certain price point you are no longer paying for the value of the instrument as a tool.

 

If a soloist 'needs' a Big Name instrument to ply his/her trade - then they just do.  While I'm okay paying to listening to Joshua Bell play a Mendini...I'd imagine a lot would much prefer to hear him play his Strad...

[Ben Hebbert]

Well, now I know not to bother coming to you.  I guess that invitation, in the thread about Stainer, to show me around the Kunst Historisches Museum in Vienna no longer stands.  Being nice to me was a lot easier for you when I agreed with you in your disagreement with Ben Hebbert.  My positions are always dependent on what the substance of people's posts are, not who they are.  So, take heart.  I may agree with you again, and disagree with whomever you're disagreeing with (assuming that I believe in your position), and you can like me again.

 

Ahem, ...  

 

... are you saying that my posts are of no substance?

 

... just asking, since that is what you said, because I'd like to know whether we are attempting to have a fundamentally constructive discussion with the aim of investigating the integrity of expertise through the proposition, however hypothetical, of a university course, or if you have other motives. 

[skiingfiddler]

... are you saying that my posts are of no substance?

 

... just asking, since that is what you said, because I'd like to know whether we are having a fundamentally constructive discussion with the aim of investigating the integrity of expertise through the proposition, however hypothetical of a university course, or if you have other motives. 

 

I didn't say anything of the sort.  However, I do believe, in your disagreement with Jacob over Stainer, Jacob's position was the better supported one, and I stated as much on that thread.  And no, I do not agree with people to curry favors.  Jacob offered the favor to show me around the KHM in Vienna unsolicited, and he offered it publicly.  I won't be trying to collect on the offer.

 

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I see dissatisfaction about the violin trade, even from those who disagree with me about the possible role of the university. My position is that a university setting has considerable advantages to the current situation in the violin world.  I'm certainly willing to listen to refutations of that position.  I'd even be willing to listen to assertions that everything is fine the way it is, if that assertion can be supported.

[Ben Hebbert]

I didn't say anything of the sort.  However, I do believe, in your disagreement with Jacob over Stainer, Jacob's position was the better supported one, and I stated as much on that thread.  And no, I do not agree with people to curry favors.  Jacob offered the favor to show me around the KHM in Vienna unsolicited, and he offered it publicly.  I won't be trying to collect on the offer.

 

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I see dissatisfaction about the violin trade, even from those who disagree with me about the possible role of the university. My position is that a university setting has considerable advantages to the current situation in the violin world.  I'm certainly willing to listen to refutations of that position.  I'd even be willing to listen to assertions that everything is fine the way it is, if that assertion can be supported.

 

 

I think the future of your ideas sits with persuading a university that they would want to take on this course - for better or for worse, it's them that call the shots, and if you can make the case compelling enough and convince them of the student numbers necessary and provide the necessary millions of endowment, they will bite your hand off to do it. How about the USD? It has a postgraduate program in organology already, and a room full of classic Cremonese violins.... I wonder why they haven't taken the initiative already! 

 

I don't think that pressure from the violin trade, or interested parties would create that course any other way, so until the men in suits from whatever university come around to do a consultation exercise, I don't think there is anything useful that any of us can add to the future of the discipline in the ways you envisage. 

 

 

skiingfiddler, on 24 Oct 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

Being nice to me was a lot easier for you when I agreed with you in your disagreement with Ben Hebbert.  My positions are always dependent on what the substance of people's posts are, not who they are.  

 

Ok... you said nothing of the sort, however you kind of meant it....  I think this rules me out of any further discussion. 

[skiingfiddler]

Well...Jacob needs to work on his bedside manner...

 

...and I don't see a problem with paying for an antique if that's what you want...

 

And that's what an old violin is - an antique.  If it comes with a provenance that increases it's value...what's wrong with that?  You see that all the time in the antiques and collectibles market...

 

If your interest is tone and playability...that's available too.  We've established that once you get past a certain price point you are no longer paying for the value of the instrument as a tool.

 

If a soloist 'needs' a Big Name instrument to ply his/her trade - then they just do.  While I'm okay paying to listening to Joshua Bell play a Mendini...I'd imagine a lot would much prefer to hear him play his Strad...

 

I hope I made it clear that my relegating provenance to the very bottom of criteria for violin selection is my own personal attitude.  I know very well that that's not the attitude of the violin trade in general.  Therefore, if provenance is going to be the most important factor in a violin's price, then the violin trade needs a system to ensure that provenance is as objective, as accurate, as up-to-date as possible.  I think the university is the setting to promote that.

[martin swan]

 My position is that a university setting has considerable advantages to the current situation in the violin world.  I'm certainly willing to listen to refutations of that position.  

I don't think you are - not really.

 

There have been dozens of well argued refutations of that position, but you have given no actual indication of having listened to any of them. You know, something like "Aha, yes I take your point, but on the other hand etc ...". I have no sense that we're having a discussion about this issue.

 

Fundamentally, no amount of academic knowledge will help with the basic questions that members of the public wish to have answered. These questions are :

1. How much should I sell my violin for? 

2. How much should I pay for this violin? 

3. How much should I insure this violin for? 

4. I bought this violin from Machold as a Stradivari, I now strongly suspect it is in fact a banjo - please help me to sue his ass!

 

I don't see how a university can help with any of these profoundly commercial concerns.

 

I do agree, or should I say you have agreed with me, that the confusion between antique value and tone is inherently problematic. If the scales have fallen from your eyes that's a good thing - you are obviously a person who would be positively disposed towards a newly-made violin. Perhaps you own one already?

[skiingfiddler]

I don't think you are - not really.

 

There have been dozens of well argued refutations of that position, but you have given no actual indication of having listened to any of them. You know, something like "Aha, yes I take your point, but on the other hand etc ...". I have no sense that we're having a discussion about this issue.

 

Fundamentally, no amount of academic knowledge will help with the basic questions that members of the public wish to have answered. These questions are :

1. How much should I sell my violin for? 

2. How much should I pay for this violin? 

3. How much should I insure this violin for? 

4. I bought this violin from Machold as a Stradivari, I now strongly suspect it is in fact a banjo - please help me to sue his ass!

 

I don't see how a university can help with any of these profoundly commercial concerns.

 

I do agree, or should I say you have agreed with me, that the confusion between antique value and tone is inherently problematic. If the scales have fallen from your eyes that's a good thing - you are obviously a person who would be positively disposed towards a newly-made violin. Perhaps you own one already?

Martin,

 

Give me time.  I'll try to respond to as many posts as I can.  I'm just one person, trying to respond to quite of number of people.  The topic is important enough to give some thought to replies.

 

The violins I own are contemporary instruments, some brand new where I'm the original owner and some removed from me by one previous owner:  Tshu Ho Lee, year 2000 (that was a commissioned instrument); Tschu Ho Lee, year 1967, bought from the first owner; Mark Hollinger, 1993, bought from Mark after the fiddle came back into his shop;  Ray Leicht, year 2000, bought directly from Ray.

 

Buying new or nearly new instruments from living makers makes the provenance issue a non-issue.

[martin swan]

 

 

Buying new or nearly new instruments from living makers makes the provenance issue a non-issue.

Yes I agree - I'm glad to discover that you put your money where your mouth is.

It's a real wonder to me that more players don't buy new violins, or violins by contemporary makers. Having said that, from earliest childhood I was encouraged to love old things, and I have a special feeling of desire for antique instruments. This is pretty common!

[Johnmasters]

John,

 

Your research is rather technical, and I won't pretend to understand it.  But it is clear to me that it is relevant to a question every violin player raises, after some years of experience with the violin: If I change to a string with a higher or lower string tension, what can I expect the tonal consequences to be?  My experience is that the old belief of higher tension equals louder sound is not true.  I have personally found that moving to lower tension strings would have no detrimental effect  in terms of volume of sound.  Indeed, moving to a lower tension string might improve response while not inhibiting volume.

 

But that is my very subjective feeling, and it may or may not accord with scientific measurements you can make.

 

Please feel encouraged that your findings would be relevant to the average player, and are not just esoteric facts that have no direct consequences for the typical player.  That typical player can gain insight into the question about string tension and tone, and better understand what kind of strings to try.  That's exactly the kind of feedback from physics that the typical player needs. 

 

There's no better place for physics than the university, and the information thus gained is readily accessible and at no charge to the violin playing public.

It was not just technical,  it was miguided,  but i did learn some things about what was wrong with it.  Maybe some day a physical model will be found to show connections between stresses and "tone."   But the physics that some suggested would be included in a university violin studies program would pretty basic.  Anyone who could really go after a problem like this would probably be doing it while being in a major engineering pursuit . 

 

Carl Stross  ..... yes,  it "depends."   But how and why ?

[skiingfiddler]

 For the general public, a dedicated violin version of Wikipedia might be of more use than say, instituting a "Bachelors of Violin Science" program at various universities, or funding more museums that sell access to their data.  A lot of the problem is a lack of organization to the data that already is freely available as well as the vast amount of specialist information that's sequestered behind financial barriers.  An authoritative scholarly-research based online wiki publication citing its sources would be valuable to solve both problems.  Any takers to fund a foundation for this? 

 

That's an interesting idea, especially interesting because some major universities are very proud of the fact that all of their courses, every last one, is available on-line.  If the hoarding of fine violins into private collections continues to deplete the violins available for first hand viewing, then potential violin scholars may have to settle for photos over the real thing.  Then courses on line, not just databases, would be the only practical means of studying the details of violin form generally available.

 

The barrier to the authoritative database idea might be the tradition among violin dealers that you can't be wrong.  If you over-attribute a violin in terms of origin, the customer has lost money.  If you under-attribute, the dealer has lost money.  Dealers putting detailed information with some substance to it onto an online database for all  the world to see any errors are thus running a risk.  Dealers might not want to participate.

 

Somehow a system needs to be put in place in which to be dead wrong is ok, because the correction process is a positive one.  Academic scholars in all other discipline, ie, university faculty, have that freedom to be dead wrong and know that the correction process leads to better information.  Violin scholars need that freedom.

[skiingfiddler]

University courses tend to be academic, abstract, and cerebral.  My professional work brings a lot of transcripts, CVs and internship reports across my desktop.  In some countries an engineering student has to spend a period alongside technicians before continuing.  In other parts of the world, people doing the practical work complain about things imposed by eggheads who only know theory.  I know almost nothing about the work of a luthier, but I can't imagine related knowledge being turned into a university course.  I'm thinking of what Martin said about hands-on, and how fine skills would get trained over time.

But I'm also thinking of my present situation.  For example, teachers commonly advise students about their violin purchase.  The students themselves come in knowing zilch.   But should teachers know more?  My impression is that they will judge by playing an instrument, what they expect to feel and hear, by what they have experienced.  But do teachers and violinists actually know enough?  Are there things they ought to know, and if so, what are those things, and where can they end up knowing them?  Never mind identifying rare instruments - are there some practical things that are missing right now?

As my own adventure unfolds, I've been told as a poorly taught student with diminished unpractise skills, that my subjective liking of an instrument's sound is enough.  And at this juncture, I'm talking of teacher feedback since I'm trying to consult and see someone.  I've read both Martin's and David's write-ups on their sites about violin sound and violin quality.  What scares me is the thought that I might know more by having read these few things than the people I am trying to consult.  You guys deal with the teachers and violinists.  Should they know more?  Obviously if you have both the expertise and the ethics, then they can rely on you and your judgment to advise them.  But all kinds of people sell and make violins.  I have a feeling that it's a jungle out there. [understatement, I'm sure.]

 

 

This thread is referring to some kind of graduate program in luthiery? Or just a few courses? FWIW, both of the universities where I got my vl perf degrees now offer (but didn't when I was there) coursework in the hardware, so to speak, of stringed instruments. Both Rice and North Texas. Don't know what these courses consist of but wish they had been available when I was there.

Rice also now has some coursework in the "business of music," how to manage one's career. And seems to be more into pedagogy, with a program serving children in the area who want lessons, using Rice students as teachers. Kind of surprising.

 

 

It is a pity.  I agree.

 

But...what could be done is develop a few on-line style courses (not my favourite at all, but they'd serve a need in this instance) - that cover the basics that ALL those interested in the violin (for example)  would need. 

 

Example:

 

1. Violin history

2. Basics of Construction, Repair and Maintenance

3. Biology of Tonewood, Chemistry of Varnish, Physics of Sound

4. Sociology (Performers, Teachers, Retail, Customers and Audience)

 

So now all students are on the same page with the basics.  Then they branch out into their disciplines - performance, making, restoration, etc.

 

It would work.  Anyone could take them - even the layperson.  Since they are on-line, anyone can access them.  Might even be economically viable that way.

 

If you ONLY took those courses...and nothing else...you wouldn't have a degree or a  diploma...you'd only have the courses under your belt.  So it doesn't give anyone any special advantage at that point.  Or...the institution running the show could add a couple more classes or electives and if you did well and passed you could have a certificate.  Again, a certificate wouldn't get you further - but it would show you did the work.

 

The Master Gardener program works a bit like that...you have to take courses in all the basics...then you get a certificate. 

 

I would take those courses for example.  It would provide a framework for learning and ease the wading through endless  material that as a layman you have no idea of what's important and what's not.  I could take those courses in my spare time.  Work on them in the evenings.  Hopefully file away an official looking document at the end of the program, printed on nice paper...Addie?  Listening?  Possible business venture...

 

I've gathered all of these posts into one post because they all seem to show the same concern:  The violin student needs to understand the violin in a larger, practical, non-musical context. 

 

One of those contexts would be the violin market.  Students, certainly at the college level and beyond, should understand how violins are priced and how that might affect their selection of a violin.

 

I think there might be wide spread agreement that every violin (family) college student would profit from an auxiliary course which offers some insight into violin pricing vs quality, in addition to their courses in musical training.

 

[Stephen Faulk]

 

 

I think there might be wide spread agreement that every violin (family) college student would profit from an auxiliary course which offers some insight into violin pricing vs quality, in addition to their courses in musical training.

 

 There are already classes given to those going into music education on basic string instrument care.

 

It's a can of worms to introduce a market based class for a number of reasons.  Finding a truly disinterested party to teach the class would be difficult. Every teacher has personal likes and dislikes, biases and a tendency to direct students towards certain makers or dealers. There would also be strange competition between dealers to get a foot in the door with educators to get mentioned as a seller. That would lead to payola situations of one kind or another that would not benefit students. 

 

Setting up an avenue for commerce to enter into the education process is generally a poor idea. It's bad enough that schools have to resort to corporate funding to finance new depts. and support the sciences. 

 

The real answer to your question, is that you should develop a syllabus and submit it for review and feedback from professional teachers and dealers. Should you be able to rewrite the class plan to satisfy everyone, then try to create a class at a local school. It's great to bring it up time and again, but to sit down and write a realistic syllabus for this class would reveal the actual problems in teaching a class like this. You can talk about it, and talk about it, but at some point you have to walk the walk and develop a curriculum, organize it and teach it. Otherwise it's just more chin music. Conceptually it's a lofty lovely idea, but can you sit down and do it? Or are you going to talk about it and hope that someone else does it? 

 

Write a syllabus for this class. 

[David Burgess]

 

It's a can of worms to introduce a market based class for a number of reasons.  Finding a truly disinterested party to teach the class would be difficult. Every teacher has personal likes and dislikes, biases and a tendency to direct students towards certain makers or dealers. There would also be strange competition between dealers to get a foot in the door with educators to get mentioned as a seller. That would lead to payola situations of one kind or another that would not benefit students. 

 

I'll add that if existing faculty members are profiting from instrument sales commissions, it might be pretty hard to get a program like that through the door. Why would they want students better able to second-guess their recommendations?

[jacobsaunders]

Well...Jacob needs to work on his bedside manner...

 

...and I don't see a problem with paying for an antique if that's what you want...

 

And that's what an old violin is - an antique.  If it comes with a provenance that increases it's value...what's wrong with that?  You see that all the time in the antiques and collectibles market...

 

If your interest is tone and playability...that's available too.  We've established that once you get past a certain price point you are no longer paying for the value of the instrument as a tool.

 

If a soloist 'needs' a Big Name instrument to ply his/her trade - then they just do.  While I'm okay paying to listening to Joshua Bell play a Mendini...I'd imagine a lot would much prefer to hear him play his Strad...

Jacobs “Bedside manner”(?) is impeccable of course, not worthy of debate.

What some people don't seem to realise, is that there are people (more than you think) who have spent much of their lives immersed in the subject (of old violins) who give their more or less learned opinion to people who come around for help almost every day, mostly free of charge. That such information is wholly impartial (although often to the disappointment of the enquirer) and to the very best of ones knowledge can be taken as a matter of course. It is outrageously rude and insulting for some clueless dilettante to presumptuously assert that one cannot get any impartial information and that such people are to be blanketly disbelieved. For such disgraceful (recidivist, since this psychosis repeats itself every couple of years) behaviour, he should apologise.

By way of compromise, I could of course invite him to lick my bottom, should you prefer me to quote Goethe.

[Michael_Molnar]

It's a can of worms to introduce a market based class for a number of reasons.  Finding a truly disinterested party to teach the class would be difficult. Every teacher has personal likes and dislikes, biases and a tendency to direct students towards certain makers or dealers. There would also be strange competition between dealers to get a foot in the door with educators to get mentioned as a seller. That would lead to payola situations of one kind or another that would not benefit students. 

 

Having worked in academia, I can say that this concern is understandable. Humans will be human,