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Posted

Steven, 

 

Even on that level, the onus rests on the university or conservatoire to have the vision to understand that it is necessary. There are plenty of us on Maestronet who either have or would do that at a drop of a hat, but for whatever reason universities and conservatoires have not been persuaded of its value. If you could petition them and initiate change, you would do the world a justice. But it is them, not us, that you have to convince. 

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Posted

Steven, 

 

Even on that level, the onus rests on the university or conservatoire to have the vision to understand that it is necessary. There are plenty of us on Maestronet who either have or would do that at a drop of a hat, but for whatever reason universities and conservatoires have not been persuaded of its value. If you could petition them and initiate change, you would do the world a justice. But it is them, not us, that you have to convince. 

 

There seems to be some interest at some universities for some sort of introductory course about the violin.  In past posts, Jeffrey Holmes mentions that the University of Michigan had an interest in such a course.   Philip Kass is on the faculty of the Curtis Institute,  as a violin historian, I assume.  Indiana University might have such a course.  And cm sunday has made references to some schools with a possible course.  So, there's some interest out there in academia for such a course.

 

But, Ben, you are right.  The people to direct one's energies towards are the university administrators. 

 

Also, maybe university violin students who are reading this thread and who think that such a course could be beneficial can ask for one.

Posted

There seems to be some interest at some universities for some sort of introductory course about the violin.  In past posts, Jeffrey Holmes mentions that the University of Michigan had an interest in such a course.  Philip Kass was (still is?) teaching a violin history course at Juilliard or Curtis, not sure which.  Indiana University might have such a course.  And cm sunday has made references to some schools with a possible course.  So, there's some interest out there in academia for such a course.

 

But, Ben, you are right.  The people to direct one's energies towards are the university administrators. 

 

 

I'm not really sensing that fire in your heart to go forth and evangelise to the masses, Steven. 

 

 

Also, maybe university violin students who are reading this thread and who think that such a course could be beneficial can ask for one.

 

 

Case in point about the world we live in. Maestronet is a very easy resource to stumble upon if you google any intellectually curious question about the violin. I'm just not feeling any sense that university music students are flocking to engage in this discussion.... Do I hear a contributor chiming in "I'm a music major at dingdong university, I think this course would be great"... nope? Do I get the sense that there is even any violin making students from any of the major schools that has the intellectual curiosity to cast questions out into the collective wisdom of Maestronet. The answer is nope as well. I think that silence speaks volumes for the reality that you are trying to appeal to. 

Posted

God, how many ways or times does one have to say it: Violin or any instrument making is not an academic subject. To make it academic would probably kill it. The same way academia kills art making. It's not hard to fathom; its' vocational and it's not language based knowledge, it's internalized non verbal intelligence. Taking that to academe is a bad idea because academia by its nature has to disassemble non verbal forms of intelligence in order to understand them. Taking internalized intelligence forms apart renders them into mere illustrations of the actual knowledge that is embedded in makers at a cellular level. 

 

Art in academia suffers because academia requires that art be intellectualized, making art is not at its core an intellectual activity. Nor is violin making. Be thankful violin and instrument making stand outside wholly academic institutions and are mainly taught at vocational specialty schools which don't break down the internalized non verbal intelligence that the teachers transmit. 

 

Thankfully due to lack of arts and music funding in academia, moving violin making into the standard curriculum does not at present seem to be a danger to be taken seriously. 

Posted

Jezzupe posts:

Begin:

To me it's not so much the idea, I do however feel there is not enough demand for such a thing, but to me it's much more the format idea, meaning I could see this "School" but I pretty much see it as a small privately run institution that is not connected to university or college campuses, if anything those places are refering students to you.

 

So really it comes down to money, if you had the ability to rent a proper facility, and then the hard part, pay for a quality staff of instructors, who would rather do this than what they are already doing based on being lured away by huge sums, or the ability to do both your thing, as well as what they normally do,...one wonders that after all that was done and you swung the doors open for business, how many people would have the interest and gobs of money that it would take to study at the private school?

 

I just think the the internet has the ability to create an "everyone knows that" or a false sense of importance as either and individual or group. And as a group, I think we are all very important, however the world of violin, as big as it is, isn;t that big, and that world, the relatively small slice of the pie that focuses on valuation, identification and authenticity is even smaller....a niche within a niche.....and s again I say, novel idea, but I just see any where near the amount of students to make it a viable business idea....and thus places like here, where people are the staff that is paid nothing are the best alternative....I don;t think there is one regular here who can say that they have not learned many things from hanging out here.

End.

 

Ben and jezzupe,

 

Duly noted, and your posts make clear the need to have realistic goals, such as a single course for string players at a university to help them maintain their instruments and navigate the violin market.

Ok, well along those lines, I don;t think the amount of time needed would require semesters worth of study, actually I think most could be learned in a 1-3 day course, so what you do is contact music dept's tell them the concept and see if they can't come up with funding to cover a 3 day skype video presentation, where the school pays x amount for the 3 day course you design. To which you could perhaps entice some people with experience outside of your own to participate by giving their presentation via skype, broadcast to the classroom. So, for example, Jacob, who we all know would just jump at a chance to work with you on this :lol: could get paid say 500$ to ramble for about 3 hours on his particular forte of knowledge, which he and many do here for at least and hour or two by typing anyway, for free...this way no one has to travel, can stay in their pj's, make some money, you get your classes, the kids get armed with knowledge....again I'm not sure how many days it would take to go over what, as some sort of curriculum would need to be sorted out, but this seems to be a way to get into university, without needing to actually have them set up a class, an affordable way to temp knowledgeable  people to participate as it would be very easy for them by not having to travel, some may donate time, like they do here, and well with the right marketing, you could probably get local music shops to participate with funding, and could even turn it into a npo that gets private funding through donations through college's in order to provide this service to college level string depts....

 

edit; actually we're all waiting for you to get on this, you will take MN on  the road doing a whirlwind college campus tour, your time will be spent traveling around the country setting up the connection and big screen tv, while we sit at home eating corn chips in our underwear waiting for you to get us connected, we then blather for a couple of hours and watch the cash roll in....yes I like this idea, I expect a full report by next monday

 

also, somewhere in the promotions about the classes I like you to include a small attraction that promotes my availability for private "in depth" classes where I discuss the finer elements of male pole dancing in a Geronimo outfit, pf course completely separate from the violin stuff, but I figured while we had the connection up and all.

Posted

I'm not really sensing that fire in your heart to go forth and evangelise to the masses, Steven. 

 

 

Ben,

I doubt that evangelizing to the masses would be effective, but you have convinced me that if I'm serious about violin knowledge in a university setting I should make some effort to see what's going on at my alma mater, Indiana University, Bloomington, which has a very large and prestigious string program.  There may be something to do there.

 

Full disclosure:  My degrees from Indiana University are not in music.  I was a violin major in the Music School for 2.5 years (one year of which was spent in Hamburg, Germany, as an IU music student) but switched majors when it was clear to me that making it in music to IU standards would take more time and effort than I was willing to give.

Posted

The idea of a university violin making Identifying degree is ludicrous to me...it means nothing in relation to the real life expertise that is required  I feel pretty fortunate having a Social Anthropology degree.....It is really useful in spoting BS re our trade....

 

Posted

I have noticed a trend:

 

Those with a degree/s - defend the importance of having a degree/s

 

Those without a degree/diploma - defend the uselessness of a degree/diploma...

 

Just sayin'... :rolleyes:
 

Posted

The idea of a university violin makinng Identifying degree is luducrouse to me...it means nothing in relation to the real life experftise that is required  I feel pretty fortunate having a Social Anthropology degree.....It is really useful in spoting bullshit in our trade

3 years (or longer?) to improve BS spotting skills? Wonder what Rue studied.....

Posted

Well...while not quite my area of expertise...I just gave a couple of lectures on fertilizers. I am rather well versed in all manner of BS...

Posted

I have noticed a trend:

 

Those with a degree/s - defend the importance of having a degree/s

 

Those without a degree/diploma - defend the uselessness of a degree/diploma...

 

Just sayin'... :rolleyes:

 

Some people spend four years getting a Phd, and the rest of their lives aggressively defending it.  :D  :D

Posted

Been meaning to post this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0fMS8MqlPE7NmE4M2YxMjUtZGM2MS00ZGVhLTllMGYtNWI0N2NkOWUyOWY2/view?pli=1

 

A book by art historian James Elkins. He makes this comparison between painting and alchemy, which is kind of esoteric and I guess fun, but that is not why I like this book. He manages to talk about making paintings and objects in such a way that he describes the non verbal processes and non verbal intelligence that makers/painters have that is gained only through workshop practice. He's an art historian by trade and training, but he goes to the trouble of making a distinction between that knowledge which is normally intellectually based, "book learning" and separates it from (gives great honor) to the kind of knowledge that is internalized through creative work practice and non verbal. 

 

I recommend it to anyone doing studio work or those who want to understand more about why non verbal knowledge is valuable. Elkins does a good job of explaining something with words that words don't actually cover. 

 

 

I also like the Interviews with Francis Bacon by David Sylvester, not completely on the topic of instrument making, but Bacon talks about irrational knowledge and image making. In a strange way I see this related to the mystery of instrument making, the things we intuit and count on in making that are not exactly verbal or rational. These interviews also talk around the idea of non verbal intelligence with intelligence. 

 

The reason I think these ideas are important is because in making instruments a great deal of it is rational and explainable, it's logical and pretty upfront about what has to be done craft wise. There is also a component of making that is non verbal, and often while I am making something I shift into a non verbal state and I don't want to talk or can't talk without breaking concentration. When making a cut and the chisel or knife is drawing a live line, a transmission of non spoken intelligence directly from the brain onto the knife, making the knife move to cut a line with living vitality and not merely working to a pencil line. That reminds me of Bacon's idea of non rational intelligence at work and also ideas like David Pye's differentiation between workmanship or risk and workmanship of certainty. 

 

I'm kind of a nerd for these topics as un-talkable as they are, which is why I protest so much about the over intellectualization of art / object making. I suppose I'm a proponent of the 'Grunt and Fart' school of creativity. 

Posted

Some people spend four years getting a Phd, and the rest of their lives aggressively defending it.  :D  :D

 

But Steph, just think, we could have fought over breadcrumbs together....on second thought, I'll skip the debt

Posted

Some people spend four years getting a Phd, and the rest of their lives aggressively defending it.  :D  :D

 

Anybody spending the rest of their lives defending their PhD thesis is wasting their lives.  If you haven't learned anything beyond your PhD thesis then you are not active in the field.  I've said this any number of times, but it doesn't sink in: A degree, whether a masters or a doctorate, does not confer on someone the title of expert.  It simply means that the person knows the current material in the field (that's a masters) and, in the case of the PhD, knows how to do meaningful research in the field and has produced some new, additional information or idea in the field.  A PhD doesn't make you an expert, but it gives you the background and tools to work toward being an expert if you choose.

Posted

I'm curious though... going through authorities on the violin who have written texts on the violin who have university, or equivalent institutional positions, the reading list of the most up to date literature would be:

 

Dr Nicholas Sackman The Messiah A Reliable History

Stewart Pollens Antonio Stradivari

David Schoenbaum The Violin A Social History

 

Would anyone like to comment?   

 

I don't know the Sackman and Pollens books, but am re-reading "Book 2, Selling It" pp.125 - 259, in the Schoenbaum book. 

 

Schoenbaum's writing style is, at times, off-puting in its flippancy and lofty tone.   He seems to enjoy presenting anecdotes without providing an explicit context for them.  Thus it's not always easy to see a path he wants you on in your thinking. 

 

Nonetheless, the "Selling It" section can be entertaining in its anecdotes (like the one about Machold, Roger Hargrave, and the North Koreans), and once he settles into giving you a history of the violin trade, you get a pretty good picture of the trade right up to the near present. 

 

He does present a number of instances of questionable or less than honest dealings in the trade, and that may give some readers the impression that he's emphasizing the negative.  To me, his presentation seems balanced.

 

The section is an extensive presentation of the violin trade, in terms of timeline, and Schoenbaum cites his sources.  Therefore, I'd recommend it.  If someone knows a more complete description of the violin trade over the centuries than Schoenbaum's "Selling It" section, please make that known.

Posted

 

But Steph, just think, we could have fought over breadcrumbs together....on second thought, I'll skip the debt

 I had a teacher who was fond of calling art school a "Fish ladder to unemployment."  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Posted

Anybody spending the rest of their lives defending their PhD thesis is wasting their lives.  If you haven't learned anything beyond your PhD thesis then you are not active in the field.  I've said this any number of times, but it doesn't sink in: A degree, whether a masters or a doctorate, does not confer on someone the title of expert.  It simply means that the person knows the current material in the field (that's a masters) and, in the case of the PhD, knows how to do meaningful research in the field and has produced some new, additional information or idea to the field.  A PhD doesn't make you an expert, but it gives you the background and tools to work toward being an expert if you choose.

  It was a joke. But like ol' Freud said, jokes have a basis in what is real that we don't want to acknowledge. 

Posted

 

 

Nonetheless, the "Selling It" section can be entertaining in its anecdotes (like the one about Machold, Roger Hargrave, and the North Koreans), and once he settles into giving you a history of the violin trade, you get a pretty good picture of the trade right up to the near present. 

 

 

 

 

Machold, Roger Hargrave, and the North Koreans 

 

Or what is known in the violin trade as The Nuclear Option.  :lol:  :lol: 

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