A university setting for violin knowledge

[skiingfiddler]

This is a revisit of a topic that was quite contentious a few years back.  The old thread on this issue is here and is worth a look. 

 

That old thread dealt in large part with the benefits for students interested in violin connoisseurship of having the various aspects of violin knowledge available at universities.  Those topics are definitely worth revisiting.

 

In addition, it might be worth while to look at what benefits might come for all in the field, professionals and the interested general public, by establishing universities (or some other public institutions) as the repository of violin information.  What would happen if experts on the violin shared their knowledge as freely with the public as knowledge is shared in any other valued knowledge field?  A lot of good.

[skiingfiddler]

Violadamore's comment from another thread:

 

"Before this issue is totally dropped, I would like to note that probably nobody's kicking around similar proposals with regard to clarinets, snare drums, glockenspiels, or whatever.  That, to me, says something unique about the violin.  :)"

 

That's an important observation.  The violin is more than just another insignificant cultural artifact.  It is unique in some important ways:

 

-- For most musical instruments -- clarinets, snare drums, glockenspiels, oboes, bassoons, pianos, guitars -- new is better than old.  In the violin world, for many people, that's not true; the opposite is.  How justified is that?  There have been various tests to shed light on the preference for old violins, and nobody seems convinced one way or another.  Maybe more academic rigor in tests is needed.  Couldn't hurt.

 

-- Old violins now cost millions.  How justified is that?  How justified are the origins and provenances assigned to some of these instruments?  When a violin enthusiast spends millions for an Antonio Stradivari that's been  certified as such for centuries with the best of certificates, would that enthusiast still be willing to pay millions if he knew that son Francesco, not father Antonio, made the scroll, as some have asserted about most scrolls after 1700?  Maybe it wouldn't matter to the enthusiast.  Or maybe it would drive him from the purchase since the fiddle wasn't entirely made by the hands of Antonio Stradivari.  The general public is ignorant of the nuances in the statement "made by X" where X is some famous maker's name.  The general public needs the opportunity to know those nuances.  A more open and public repository of knowledge about violins would do that.

[Violadamore]

The general public is ignorant of the nuances...........................  The general public needs the opportunity to know those nuances.  A more open and public repository of knowledge about violins would do that.

 

The "general public" often seems to believe that an authentic Strad label has "Made in Germany" at the bottom  .  For the general public, a dedicated violin version of Wikipedia might be of more use than say, instituting a "Bachelors of Violin Science" program at various universities, or funding more museums that sell access to their data.  A lot of the problem is a lack of organization to the data that already is freely available as well as the vast amount of specialist information that's sequestered behind financial barriers.  An authoritative scholarly-research based online wiki publication citing its sources would be valuable to solve both problems.  Any takers to fund a foundation for this? 

[murrmac]

-- For most musical instruments -- clarinets, snare drums, glockenspiels, oboes, bassoons, pianos, guitars -- new is better than old.  

 

 

I can't speak for any of the other instruments, but as far as guitars are concerned, older is definitely perceived as better, at least as far as top quality steel strung guitars are concerned.

 

A pre-war Martin in good condition can fetch well over six figures. 

[martin swan]

Expertise in violins is a very very small field, and the knowledge can only be gained through hands-on experience of vast quantities of instruments either in daily use or zealously guarded.

Very few people are prepared to dedicate themselves to acquiring this highly specialist knowledge unless it also makes them a living.

What is shareable without forfeiting a commercial edge is already shared - the rest is business.

For these reasons I believe it will never become a university subject.

 

Restoration and making, in combination with applied acoustics, are taught adequately in violin schools and high-level workshops.

[stillnew]

University courses tend to be academic, abstract, and cerebral.  My professional work brings a lot of transcripts, CVs and internship reports across my desktop.  In some countries an engineering student has to spend a period alongside technicians before continuing.  In other parts of the world, people doing the practical work complain about things imposed by eggheads who only know theory.  I know almost nothing about the work of a luthier, but I can't imagine related knowledge being turned into a university course.  I'm thinking of what Martin said about hands-on, and how fine skills would get trained over time.

But I'm also thinking of my present situation.  For example, teachers commonly advise students about their violin purchase.  The students themselves come in knowing zilch.   But should teachers know more?  My impression is that they will judge by playing an instrument, what they expect to feel and hear, by what they have experienced.  But do teachers and violinists actually know enough?  Are there things they ought to know, and if so, what are those things, and where can they end up knowing them?  Never mind identifying rare instruments - are there some practical things that are missing right now?

As my own adventure unfolds, I've been told as a poorly taught student with diminished unpractise skills, that my subjective liking of an instrument's sound is enough.  And at this juncture, I'm talking of teacher feedback since I'm trying to consult and see someone.  I've read both Martin's and David's write-ups on their sites about violin sound and violin quality.  What scares me is the thought that I might know more by having read these few things than the people I am trying to consult.  You guys deal with the teachers and violinists.  Should they know more?  Obviously if you have both the expertise and the ethics, then they can rely on you and your judgment to advise them.  But all kinds of people sell and make violins.  I have a feeling that it's a jungle out there. [understatement, I'm sure.]

[Carl Stross]

As my own adventure unfolds, I've been told as a poorly taught student with diminished unpractise skills, that my subjective liking of an instrument's sound is enough.  And at this juncture, I'm talking of teacher feedback since I'm trying to consult and see someone.  I've read both Martin's and David's write-ups on their sites about violin sound and violin quality.  What scares me is the thought that I might know more by having read these things than the people I am trying to consult.  You guys deal with the teachers and violinists.  Should they know more?  Obviously if you have both the expertise and the ethics, then they can rely on you and your judgment to advise them.  But all kinds of people sell and make violins.  I have a feeling that it's a jungle out there. [understatement, I'm sure.]

 

This is a bit OT but not that much : I sense you are trying to compress years of "understanding" into a very short cognitive space.

It is not going to work : as your understanding evolves, your taste and needs evolve too. The idea that some violin teacher or some violin player knows "violin tone" is plain ludicrous. Those people are experts at making do with what they have and the better of them are prepared to compromise heavily for a limited number of "qualities" they find they really need. In your case, YOUR opinion may be the most valuable. The alternative is to search for somebody who specializes in how violins sound. They're around but they cost money. I'll re-word : superb players will play on violins which are so obnoxious and so malfunctioning, others won't touch with a barge pole. They have the reserve to beat the violin into submission and are mainly interested how the violin sounds in a large hall. That's where a lot of "nice" violins fall flat, i.e. they are useless. 

 

In your case, in my opinion, you would be best served by a newish ( not fresh off the line ) correctly made Chinese, German violin which was set up properly by a real expert. Like our Jeffrey Holmes, David Burgess, Jerry Pasewicz, Nathan Slobodkin, Michael Darnton etc. The violin could be slightly "reworked" - they know what that means. 90% of your impression of a violin is adjustment. Proper adjustment of violins is a very rare occurrence and an extremely difficult thing to do. A properly adjusted violin collaborates with you. A badly adjusted one, fights you on each and every note.

 

My warmest suggestion is that you read the above paragraph a few times, act accordingly and then get on with practicing. Apologies for going OT.

[David Burgess]

 I'll re-word : superb players will play on violins which are so obnoxious and so malfunctioning, others won't touch with a barge pole.

I haven't run into that very much. Many soloist instruments are quite easy to play.

[Carl Stross]

I haven't run into that very much. Many soloist instruments are quite easy to play.

 

I said "superb players" not "soloists".

[Michael Richwine]

I said "superb players" not "soloists".

 

Could you name a few examples? The players, and the shortcomings of their instruments?

[stillnew]

Answering Carl Stross:  In my thread you seemed to assume that I had set out to upgrade, since you told me that I should have sought information here first about upgrading.  I went in to repair two stuck pegs, a slanted bridge, and a tune-up if needed.  I was happy with my violin, the one I brought in.  It was lack of knowledge and naivete that led to the rest.  I came in for a repair and left with a more expensive paid for instrument.  By the time I knew enough, I was told my violin had been sold.  I have not been able to reverse this and I don't have the strength to fight it, so I am trying to recover my losses by at least ending up with a good instrument within the option that was presented to me.  That option is to try instruments that are in the same category / price as the one that I paid for, until I find one that I like.

The violin I first brought home bothered me. I was used to, if I adjusted the intonation of a high D, that the whole instrument would resonate - and this stayed unchanged.  A violinist-teacher friend listening to a recording pinpointed something I had felt - that different strings were louder - I was adjusting.  Martin caught a wolf on the A string.  It was harder to produce dynamics: I'd get this big resonant sound that maybe got louder, but it wasn't responding to what I did.  None of this has to do with subjective taste in sound. ----- In contrast, the third violin of this group that I've taken out does seem to respond.  It responds to my bowing, and it also responds to intonation.  I can learn with an instrument that responds to what I do, and it's better if I don't have to adjust to idiosyncracies.  But I'm an inexperienced person.  I am absolutely certain that I would not have wanted to keep that first instrument because of the characteristics that I listed.  From what you are telling me, my subjective impressions are good enough to guide me in that.  

Carl, you are the one who suggested that I consult a local person privately.  That's what I did.  And the teacher I contacted figured out I had bought a "workshop violin", and sight unseen considered me lucky and that it was good, merely on that fact.  Yet the first of this group that I tried out had the attributes that I listed.  I've tried four, and they are all quite different in their behaviour.  One of the four may be more than fine, but I want someone who is more experienced and more skilled than me to test it for me.  And that segues directly into this thread.  Make sense?

Now considering each thing you wrote - and I mean considering:

 

I sense you are trying to compress years of "understanding" into a very short cognitive space.

I think I'm saying the opposite.  I know almost zero.  If my reading two pages written by two expert luthiers gives me more knowledge than people I am consulting, that is alarming, because those two pages is a drop in a bucket.  I will say that what I read gave a face to some things I had experienced (with the instrument and with people), heard or sensed.  I have more than I had before which was precious little. I've been forced to try to educate myself in a short time simply to be able to orient myself a bit.  I have no illusions about how little this is.

 

The idea that some violin teacher or some violin player knows "violin tone" is plain ludicrous.

I am not looking for judgment of "violin tone".  And the first problem in "finding someone local" as you suggested involves whom to ask.  Over a decade ago I was faced with having two "equal" violins and needing to sell one of them.  At that time I brought them to a teacher, and in his assessment he identified things such as greater dynamic range and more sensitive response in one of them.  I chose that one, which had been my son's.  I had to adjust my bowing because of its greater responsiveness, and this did good things to my growth.  That is the only experience I have.  I contacted that person because at least I had that.  When he didn't respond for a few days I also tried to look up local teachers but I ran into just what you said -- "some" teacher -- that's a crap shoot.  I abandoned the search.  We're in agreement.

 

Those people are experts at making do with what they have and the better of them are prepared to compromise heavily for a limited number of "qualities" they find they really need.

This goes back to this particular thread.  Teachers are advising students whose abilities are being formed, and is there knowledge in the context of this thread that might be good for them to have.

In terms of the compromises: That is what happened with my very first, very badly made violin.  As a novice I ended up pressing very heavily into the strings while leaving my thumb off to avoid the discomfort of the ridge in the neck.  My teacher, who had good technique, continued using his good technique, and he also had a much larger hand.  I developed habits that eventually injured me due to the instrument and how I played it.  Again I'm trying to stay with THIS topic.  Would some education in this area be good for non-luthiers - especially those advising students on instruments?

 

In your case, YOUR opinion may be the most valuable.  

Well, I do seem to be able to catch more things than I thought I could.  But a lot has been at the level of "there is something about this that feels right / doesn't feel right."  I've been consulting with a violinist and teacher whose ears I trust, but since we're in different countries, I can't do more.  She heard the uneven sound of strings when I had already been compensating so then I could trust my impressions.

 

superb players will play on violins which are so obnoxious and so malfunctioning, others won't touch with a barge pole.

Yes, I totally get that.

 

 your case, in my opinion, you would be best served by a newish ( not fresh off the line ) correctly made Chinese, German violin which was set up properly by a real expert.

In the present situation my choice is a violin along that line of "equivalent" violins from that shop.  The person I went to was supposed to be that kind of expert.  I actually researched return plane trips to Chicago at one point.  

And here we go back ON TOPIC again.  Will a teacher advising a student know to whom to send that student?  Can teachers recognize "real experts"?  Should teachers know a thing or two about violins as per this thread?  I am trying to stay on-topic.  My affair has been beaten to death and frankly I'm a bit embarrassed about that.

[Carl Stross]

Could you name a few examples? The players, and the shortcomings of their instruments?

 

I could "name"  hundreds. USSR chamber orchs or "string orchs" which I have heard many of many times on tours were made up of absolutely superb players, lots of Moscow or Leningrad Conservatory graduates, playing on the most abysmal instruments one could imagine and often fitted with USSR made strings - those are a story to be told. The shortcomings of the instruments were the normal ones for instruments never receiving any professional attention : bad repairs, open cracks, non fitting posts / bridges, very bad fingerboards often non-ebony etc. Instruments were in general unresponsive, wolfy, false, bad harmonics etc and unbearable to listen to from close or under the ear. But large halls and player's competency act as a wonderful equalizer for violins and bad violins, as long as they're pushed hard make for "dense" orchestral sound. Listen to old recodings of BPO / VPO and compare with modern US orchestra recordings. Insufficient variation in violin quality and playing makes for a hollow sound on the string section. Rips the meat off the bones.

 

Might surprise you ( and it surprised me at the time ) but a lot of Russian players considered fitting a post or making a bridge something the player does.  

[Carl Stross]

1. Answering Carl Stross:  In my thread you seemed to assume that I had set out to upgrade, since you told me that I should have sought information here first about upgrading.  I went in to repair two stuck pegs, a slanted bridge, and a tune-up if needed.  I was happy with my violin, the one I brought in.  It was lack of knowledge and naivete that led to the rest.  

 

2. And here we go back ON TOPIC again.  Will a teacher advising a student know to whom to send that student?  Can teachers recognize "real experts"?  Should teachers know a thing or two about violins as per this thread?  I am trying to stay on-topic.  My affair has been beaten to death and frankly I'm a bit embarrassed about that.

 

1. You are not answering to me and there is no need to. Take your present violin to a REAL EXPERT and there is a 90% probability that it can be tweaked into a pleasant violin, easy on the ear and compliant to intention. If that violin is a "dog" then simply

purchase a 2nd hand properly constructed Chinese violin for 200 bucks, take it to a REAL EXPERT and get on with practice. People qualified to the Tchaikovsky competition on lesser ones. And to Paganini.

 

2. In my experience, the general answer is NO. I am sure there are exceptions. Amateurs, greatly exaggerate "tone". Pros learn to make do and the better of them can imprint their tone on the violin to some degree. What you need at this stage as per your clips is a clean, quiet, compliant violin which does not make practice tiring. 

[Rue]

Russians seem to do many things a little differently.   Even nowadays. I sat beside a sweet young Russian immigrant in orchestra a few years ago - and apparently she had gone to a music-oriented high school. You'd never know.    And she had a home-made shoulder rest which she took some time to show and explain it to me. Apparently you couldn't get 'store bought' shoulder rests.

 

Back to the OT...while I'm all for schooling and education, I don't think a University degree in violins is the way to go.  I think you'd be better served...if you want a 4 year program...to set one up specifically and to tailor it more like they do for electricians, plumbers, carpenters - by that I mean sessions of coursework interspersed with an apprenticeship program of some sort.

 

The academic course work might be comprised of classes such as:  General history.  Art history.  Music history.  Violin history.  You'd probably want a sociology course as well.  As far as sciences go...at least a basic biology, chemistry and physics...but geared towards instruments and instrumental sound production.  And 1 or 2 economics classes with a marketing and retail component.

 

The rest is shops!

 

 

[Will L]

 Proper adjustment of violins is a very rare occurrence and an extremely difficult thing to do. A properly adjusted violin collaborates with you. A badly adjusted one, fights you on each and every note.

 

 

Yes!  And the pros often can't do much better at adjustments than anyone else.  I think the "very rare occurrence" is because a really  good adjustment IS so difficult that it is almost a matter of luck when or if we arrive at one.

 

Most people are playing on instruments which are less than perfect in any number of ways.  Humans are amazingly adaptable—some more than others—and particularly if you are a professional you fight through the instrument come hell or high water.  You have no choice.  But that is certainly not the ideal.

[David Burgess]

I could "name"  hundreds. USSR chamber orchs or "string orchs" which I have heard many of many times on tours were made up of absolutely superb players, lots of Moscow or Leningrad Conservatory graduates, playing on the most abysmal instruments one could imagine...

The state of lutherie in Russia really is pretty dire, according to people I talked to there.

I didn't have a chance to get a close look at any of the instruments used by students at the Moscow Conservatory. Just saw them up on a stage, from my position in the audience.

[Carl Stross]

The state of lutherie in Russia really is pretty dire, according to people I talked to there.

I didn't have a chance to get a close look at any of the instruments used by students at the Moscow Conservatory.

 

I'd suspect so but I also think things will improve. My observations are '75 to '93 or so - that was my last encounter of a Russian orch. I think that was the "Moscow Virtuosos" or something on those lines. In Munich I believe. But now there is Internet - at least they know there are proper solutions to problems. And there are some dealer operations in Moscow - an acquaintance  of mine played at the opening of one a few years ago. As a curiosity, there was a quite good Russian maker around 1900 or so ( name ?) . My teacher owned a violin by him and a friend qualified to Tch on it. They could do it ! :)

[Carl Stross]

Yes!  And the pros often can't do much better at adjustments than anyone else.  

 

Do you REALLY want us kicked off MN ?? Adjustments by pros are blessed. If one doesn't like them, one goes to the ear doctor. 

Question is, who's "pros" ? That's easy : anybody with a sound post setter and a knife.

[DGV]

Do you REALLY want us kicked off MN ?? Adjustments by pros are blessed. If one doesn't like them, one goes to the ear doctor. 

Question is, who's "pros" ? That's easy : anybody with a sound post setter and a knife.

 

Add "no sandpaper".

[Dwight Brown]

There is only one Musicology course that I know of that deals mostly with instruments.  The National Music Museum in SD.  I am not aware of any others (doesn't mean I'm right)

 

They accept very few students, wish I could run away and join the circus....

 

dlb

[stillnew]

The point I was trying to make - and I'll leave this topic after that since it's inter-luthier - is that teachers advise their students who are more vulnerable since they don't have the skills yet.  I wondered whether getting greater knowledge of the instrument may be beneficial in this respect.  Throwing in my own experience was a mistake.  With that I'll respectfully bow out and observe from afar.

[Ben Hebbert]

Hmmm... it seems to be the season for digging up old threads. I'm quite grateful that we have, because I think it's a philosophical tenet to our craft and integrity that we continually readdress our responsibility to our guiding principles where connoisseurship and ethics are concerned.

 

In the first place, supposing that we wanted to do this, it would have to be a master's degree level, because I think that one way or another it would presuppose a fundamental grounding in critical understanding that would be developed through an undergraduate training. The ideal candidate would be able to demonstrate those fundamental principles (for academia's sake) and would hopefully have attended violin making school to get the same basic training in what a violin is as an object as any violin maker. After that, I see that the cost of the average master's degree in the United States is between $40,000 and $120,000.

 

At that point the argument falls down. Frankly, if someone wants to spend up to $120,000 being taught to look at violins, they could probably use that financial resource much better by travelling, seeing things, and making connections with the trade that would give them a stepping stone in the right direction. I have no idea of the course fee structures in the States, but believe me, this would be such a specialised course that it's difficult to think of it costing anywhere on the cheap side of things. I certainly wouldn't be able to fund myself through a course like that, although I have been able to fund myself to take all the opportunities that life has thrown at me to increase my knowledge. 

 

I take the Darwinistic approach. There are violin making students and others who make an effort to be interested, who make a commitment to go to events, visit violin shops, collect photos, read books, touch instruments, ask questions, listen, look and learn. They tend to get noticed fairly fast, and after that it's a question of how committed they are to carry on in the trade. Students who expect things to be handed to them on a plate get nowhere but ask the world. I fear that given the option of a hands on approach or paying up to $120,000 for a plate full of information, I know which route would be vastly superior. 

[Rue]

$40000-120000 for a Master's?

What are you guys paying for? My oldest is finishing his up now...not even close to paying that. And yes...he's attending a good school.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

$40000-120000 for a Master's?

What are you guys paying for? My oldest is finishing his up now...not even close to paying that. And yes...he's attending a good school.

 

Our educational system is differently funded than yours... and it depends a bit on the commercial demand in the field. My daughter graduated with a BS in Environmental Geology, and has several possibilities for post grad studies with stipends.  Not so for my other daughter with an education degree in English.

 

Cost of undergrad studies here can be shocking too.  U of M here (a state school) is high $20Ks per year, in state.  Out of state tuition is much higher.

[Rue]

Should I offer condolences?

I have all three in University at the moment. I haven't added up their combined tuition costs but it will still be dramatically less than one of your higher priced Master's!

Still...you guys have much better shopping than we do...