Pointless to do a Soundpost patch on this back?

[uncle duke]

Yes, I realize you are an exception, or the exception.  But what HongDa is doing or wanting to do can go a long ways for hmself.  If, by chance, my #1 violin developed an injury like what he posted here I know now he's an option for repair services assuming he's not a busy person.  Would I overlook services here in town where I live, you bet I would.  Number one reason being hopefully save a few hundred and secondly, he's done these type of repairs a number of times- that's good to know.

[Violadamore]

I refuse to expand at this point of my career.  

A noble sentiment, but the holidays are once more upon us.  Good luck.  [Nibbles a warm slice of pumpkin/walnut/raisin bread slathered in cream cheese and returns to sorting pastry recipes]. 

[Ben Hebbert]

Ah, popcorn

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Geez...  Think I'll just stick to my coffee next time.  

[Carl Stross]

Geez...  Think I'll just stick to my coffee next time.  

 

You can't win. Not on MN. Never happened to anybody.

[MarkBouquet]

Despite 104 posts so far on this topic, we've never really seen much of the damaged violin. Assuming that it's just a typical "golden era Strad" copy, why not just set it aside while you look for another damaged "golden era Strad" copy that happens to have an intact back, and make a composite? A perfectly reasonable and legitimate repair, I think. It's already been pointed out that the original back is too thin anyway. I know someone who paid over $100k for her composite violin. Of course the two makers were renowned 18th century Italians, and certified as such by renowned 20th century appraisers. But anyway, replacing the back would be a much more economical and long term reliable repair. We're not talking fine art here.

[jezzupe]

Well I suppose I could say some things about some statements made, but it wouldn't really pertain to anything constructive related to this. So I will focus on on the "how can we do the best job with the situation we are given, or have accepted.

 

So assuming one has taken on this type of job of course the issue is "will the patch hold" or will it just act like a hinge, fail, and maybe make a bigger crack. I think the experience on this board is that a sound post type patch would most likely fail, I would agree with this and would suggest that most people think this based on seeing them fail. I do not think however that it would be a stretch for me to say that the majority if not all of those failures happened with single layer wood patches.

 

Now I've been experimenting around for quite awhile now as many of you know and have experimented with many unorthodox materials and construction methods. Now this "thing" I am about to share has NOT been used in this type of situation HOWEVER I have been using similar things in similar ways on some experimental things I'm working on, and it may be the solution? and or certainly worth try as I feel this patch is far superior to a regular single ply patch.

 

It is simple a 3 layer patch that incorporates balsa wood as the center layer. Balsa wood has some very unique properties based on it's structure and characteristics, one of these is that it is a "dry" material that demonstrates properties of buoyancy. This dry buoyancy is very good at displacing weight, but due to it's local softness can not handle direct load form a "point" of focus like the sound post....However when sandwiched in between to thin pieces of Maple we get a very interesting hybrid material that is very strong,light, flex resistant and due to balsa's ability to displace and spread out the load based on it's internal buoyancy, it shifts and distributes the pinpoint load to a wider foot print than what the harder heavier maple will. Maple alone can become "loaded" {like a bow} and contain and then release energy, the balsa sandwich along with the proper directional lamination pretty much eliminates that physical characteristic out of the engineering picture, by doing so I predict a patch that will hold over time.

 

So you need 3/32" balsa .75 mil maple and .5 mil maple. The stacking should go...bottom piece of maple at 45' to back, balsa at 90" to the back, the top piece should be 45' to the back the opposite way as the one on the bottom, this "thatch" type lamination DRAMATICALLY reduces woods ability to store energy in a flexed state. And or simply resists the hinging effect much more than a single layer of wood.

 

To impart extra stiffness the bottom maple piece can be glued to the balsa with a quality epoxy, I suggest applying the glue to the thicker balsa wood, an then attach the thin piece to that, it helps reduce distortion in the thin wood when the glue hits it, the rest can be glued with hide or white glue. I do only suggest the epoxy on the bottom, we want the top part of the balsa to retain it's springy floaty nature which helps displace load under vibration stress, not absorb, just redistribute over a wider area. I suggest the thicker piece of maple be on the bottom. If for some reason the arching is dramatically curved, this patch may be glued up one layer at a time, starting with the maple being glued to the back, and then stacking the sandwich one layer at a time, this will make getting good contact easier. But there is some flex and generally this type of material/patch can be clamped {or go barred} into submission to achieve contact.

[jacobsaunders]

OK…  so after a couple cups of coffee on a not-so-lazy Monday, here are my thoughts concerning this thread.  It's long. Hope someone bothers to actually read it.

 

As an accredited appraiser, I am in a close to comparable position to Jacob’s in the US... though I suppose I could test out as a certified appraiser if I thought it worth it (can't see the advantage)... but I admit to a German heritage, can speak only a few words of that language, and do operate under the impression that our country speaks a form of English.  I perform IRS (donation and estate) appraisals, insurance appraisals, appraisals for divorce and property settlements, appraisals for foundations, and the court (or plantiff) can call me to testify concerning my documents and findings, or the courts can request that I review another's appraisal.

 

He, I, and all others that I’ve noted that weighed in, seem to be in agreement that the repair the OP mentioned to the instrument is not advisable from a market standpoint.  In the states, when the repair exceeds a certain percentage of value an insurer most usually “totals” the item.  In this case, the massive depreciation of the back crack added to the cost repair itself (which in my humble opinion surpasses the value of the instrument even before the damage occurred) leaves no economic reason for doing the repair.  It's totaled, in terms of "market value".

 

In my opinion, what a professional has the responsibility of doing is to clearly explain the situation to the client, and inform them of options (if there are any).  The professional then has the option of working with the client, or declining the job.

 

At this point, I will mention I particularly liked this portion of Matt Noykos’ post:  “I don't really understand why this thread even took off. To me it's seems really simple. You explain what something will cost to repair and what the instrument is actually worth. If the instrument in your opinion is not worth repairing, you tell the customer this very clearly.”

 

Anyone have a problem with what’s stated above?

 

If an owner has an undying desire to “do the job, the whole job, and nothing less then the whole job” on an instrument for which you’ve explained that it’s inadvisable economically, you have a choice.  Decline the job, or succumb to the owner’s sentimental attachment.  Personally, I would absolutely decline the job in question unless the instrument was owned by a close relative… and I’d have to think about what I’d do for the relative.  Might end up that I’d simply buy the relative a stiff drink… but that’s what I’d do.  I don’t think I’m in a position to judge another’s choice.

 

I do not see that there is much logic/sense in the statement “if I don’t do it, someone else will”.  Slippery slope.  If you’re a professional, make up your own mind.  Don’t let someone else’s (misguided or not) actions control you.

 

Here’s where I think the thread kinda’ went off the rails. 

 

Jacob mentioned a cheaper alternative…  Certainly not a long-term solution.  Tough to explain the failure rate and the temporary benefit to a client (when they are attached to the history of the instrument), but I suppose doable.  Would I do this repair?  No.  Not what I do… and in my experience “No good deed goes unpunished”.  Once a client gets into my shop, I kind of feel stuck with them.  If he did it, however, I would not have a problem.  Not only would it be his and the informed owners choice, but the repair he mentioned is relatively easily reversed, and though there might be some fiddling around cleaning and re-registring the crack, the “big job” could always be accomplished later.

 

Jerry mentioned standing behind his work.  In context, I agree.  I doubt anyone who has been doing what we do for any length of time hasn’t had to rework all or part of something they’ve done.

 

At the same time, I think it’s a mistake to think of most repairs and restorations as “permanent”, and all of us who have been in the business for any length of time have wrestled with choices when it comes to remedying a problem for a player/owner.  For example: The shims many place between the top and neck to shore up dropped projection are, in my experience, temporary.  A relatively un-invasive repair, in a best-case scenario, they may last pretty well.  In a demanding situation, you might get a year.  The “proper” repair is a neck set… but even a neck set has a limited useful life.  Unless the violin is destroyed, you won’t be doing the last one.  In Oberlin, we have discussed, and performed, arching corrections on a free plate (no cast, no patching; no original material removed).  Andrew Fairfax presented this procedure, which Beare’s had been experimenting with for a decade.  When asked how permanent the repair might be, his response was; “I don’t know, but if the arching drops again in twenty years, there’s no reason it can’t simply be done again”.  In addition, each of us that lives in the real world has done something that is a “temporary remedy” to get the player through the concert on the coming weekend.

 

So with this in mind as context, where is the argument?

 

Next I heard something about “rip offs”.  Sorry, but if all has been explained, and the owner places his sentimental desires over that of economic viability, there is no "rip off".  I don’t believe anyone is actively recommending the repair.  Just reacting to the owner's desire to do it.  It’s a discussion.  How is discussing this situation unethical?  How can an informed decision, no matter how emotional we see it as being, constitute a rip off?  We aren't spiritual advisors.  We're violin repairers.

 

It’s a simplistic comparison, but I have a weekend cottage on a lake.  I feel good when I go there… at home.  I’ve updated the systems there and am constantly tinkering with windows, floors, doors, walls, paint, docks and other aspects of remodeling.  As concerns it’s market value, I’ve probably put a bit more money into it than I could get out of it at present.  Do I care?  No.  Do I feel that I’m being ripped off if I hire someone to put in a bay window?  No.  Do I listen to professionals about the relationship of my investment to my equity?  Sure.  I balance my risk based on my own desires and the advice from the professionals.  If my father had built the house in the first place, the additional sentimental value "might" compel me to increase my exposure...  or it might not.

 

BTW: My grandfather’s violin is in my closet.  It’s unplayable.  I don’t plan to fix it.  Try to take it from me, however, and you’ll see a relatively average and friendly man get quite scary.

 

So, is the repair advisable?  Again, we can argue this from sentimental and economic standpoints, forever.  Would I do the work?  I think I’m simply buying my relative a drink.

Thanks for your interesting essay (#94) Jeffrey.

 

I (mostly) agree with you, and would particularly like to thickly underline your remarks about “slippery slopes”.

 

In this concrete case, I could, even if you couldn’t, imagine a provisional repair (“just glue it”) to enable this occasional amateur recreational violinist the opportunity to test for a while, to find out for himself, if he really wanted to have his late fathers worthless broken violin expensively repaired or not (having vehemently advised NOT to).

 

Where I find you stop rather short, is on the “obligation to advise” part, which I contend is an absolute, and not (as widely considered here) casual obligation. This would include going through all alternatives. I mentioned, as an arbitrary number, a repair cost of $2000, although the repair suggestion from P. (#10 Back off, plaster cast etc.) would surely be dearer. As a specialist confronted with a layman, who may have absolutely no knowledge about violins, one could reasonably be expected to show him, for instance, what sort of violin he could buy, for (roughly) the same sum that he would be paying for the improvident repair, pointing out that the replacement violin he could buy instead, wouldn’t cost him, at the bottom line a penny more, and would have a resale value, whilst his fathers certainly doesn’t. Even with full disclosure, one has to wonder about the ulterior motives of a tradesman who recommends a multi thousand $ repair on a $0 violin as his first suggestion, also what prospect he might have suing for payment, in the unlikely case that that should be necessary.

I hadn't realised what a sentimental lot the Americans allegedly are. I inherited so much stuff from my dad, that I have difficulty finding a place in my 100 square meters to put it. There was masses of choice old wood, that I have gradually been giving away (for free) to various of my ex-employees for years, bit by bit. Also a lot of violins, one of which, for instance, he made in 1959 for the violin teacher of my (late) brother. I sold that last year to a young lady from Taiwan, who it turned out is a customer of “HongDa” to whom I send my best wishes, and which I suppose goes to show what a small world it is. I'm sure that dad would be posthumously very pleased that his fiddle is being put to such good use.

[jezzupe]

Thanks for your interesting essay (#94) Jeffrey.

 

I (mostly) agree with you, and would particularly like to thickly underline your remarks about “slippery slopes”.

 

In this concrete case, I could, even if you couldn’t, imagine a provisional repair (“just glue it”) to enable this occasional amateur recreational violinist the opportunity to test for a while, to find out for himself, if he really wanted to have his late fathers worthless broken violin expensively repaired or not (having vehemently advised NOT to).

 

Where I find you stop rather short, is on the “obligation to advise” part, which I contend is an absolute, and not (as widely considered here) casual obligation. This would include going through all alternatives. I mentioned, as an arbitrary number, a repair cost of $2000, although the repair suggestion from P. (#10 Back off, plaster cast etc.) would surely be dearer. As a specialist confronted with a layman, who may have absolutely no knowledge about violins, one could reasonably be expected to show him, for instance, what sort of violin he could buy, for (roughly) the same sum that he would be paying for the improvident repair, pointing out that the replacement violin he could buy instead, wouldn’t cost him, at the bottom line a penny more, and would have a resale value, whilst his fathers certainly doesn’t. Even with full disclosure, one has to wonder about the ulterior motives of a tradesman who recommends a multi thousand $ repair on a $0 violin as his first suggestion, also what prospect he might have suing for payment, in the unlikely case that that should be necessary.

I hadn't realised what a sentimental lot the Americans allegedly are. I inherited so much stuff from my dad, that I have difficulty finding a place in my 100 square meters to put it. There was masses of choice old wood, that I have gradually been giving away (for free) to various of my ex-employees for years, bit by bit. Also a lot of violins, one of which, for instance, he made in 1962 for the violin teacher of my (late) brother. I sold that last year to a young lady from Taiwan, who it turned out is a customer of “HongDa” to whom I send my best wishes, and which I suppose goes to show what a small world it is. I'm sure that dad would be posthumously very pleased that his fiddle is being put to such good use.

"I hadn't realised what a sentimental lot the Americans allegedly are"

 

 

  you don't want to know

[David Burgess]

 

 Where I find you stop rather short, is on the “obligation to advise” part, which I contend is an absolute, and not (as widely considered here) casual obligation. This would include going through all alternatives.......

 

.....Even with full disclosure, one has to wonder about the ulterior motives of a tradesman who recommends a multi thousand $ repair on a $0 violin as his first suggestion, also what prospect he might have suing for payment, in the unlikely case that that should be necessary.

A customer (and others) might just as easily wonder about the ulterior motives of a tradesman, whose main effort is to try to sell them a fiddle, when what they came in for was repair. Notice how that was perceived in this concurrent thread:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/333332-in-confusion-questions/

 

However, I don't recall anyone here recommending a multi-thousand dollar repair as their first suggestion. When Jerry brought up the more expensive repair, he started with, "If you must repair this....."

 

Jeffrey did bring up the “obligation to advise” part, as have many others here, and I gave detailed examples (in the form of a metaphor) in post #92.

 

Seems like we're just going in circles now, unless someone has another unusual or innovative suggestion on a way to do this repair.

 

With the goal of keeping costs down, could anything be done with really rigid carbon-fiber cleats, placed as close to the soundpost location as possible without interfering, to spread the load, and reduce the flexing of that area to near zero?

Perhaps one of these cleats could even be placed directly beneath the soundpost, if it was wide enough to allow for moving the post around a little?

 

I'd think that the back would need to be dehydrated well before gluing them in, so they wouldn't pull the crack apart if moisture levels get low and the back contracts in the future. And that the ends of the cleats would need to be staggered, and cut at an angle, so a new stress concentration isn't created.

 

We have quite a bit of experience now with both cross-grain, and along-the-grain reinforcement of necks with carbon fiber, and that seems be working out quite well. Also with reinforcing peg holes.

[Carl Stross]

 

 

Could anything be done with really rigid carbon-fiber cleats, placed as close to the soundpost location as possible without interfering, to spread the load, and reduce the flexing of that area to near zero?

Perhaps one of these cleats could even be placed directly beneath the soundpost, if it was wide enough to allow for moving the post around a little?

 

I'd think that the back would need to be dehydrated well before gluing them in, so they wouldn't pull the crack apart if moisture levels get low and the back contracts in the future. And that the ends of the cleats would need to be staggered, and cut at an angle, so a new stress concentration isn't created.

 

We have quite a bit of experience now with both cross-grain, and along-the-grain reinforcement of necks with carbon fiber, and that seems be working out quite well. Also with reinforcing peg holes.

 

Works fine on airplanes. You get CF sheet which is "raw" on one side and glues perfectly with hide glue.

Alternatively you take a piece of veneer and size it with hide glue on ONE side and then epoxy the other side to normal CF sheet. I first and quickly impregnate the wood with a bit of epoxy diluted with methylated spirit and then use full strength epoxy.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

I (mostly) agree with you, and would particularly like to thickly underline your remarks about “slippery slopes”.

 

In this concrete case, I could, even if you couldn’t, imagine a provisional repair (“just glue it”) to enable this occasional amateur recreational violinist the opportunity to test for a while, to find out for himself, if he really wanted to have his late fathers worthless broken violin expensively repaired or not (having vehemently advised NOT to).

 

Where I find you stop rather short, is on the “obligation to advise” part, which I contend is an absolute, and not (as widely considered here) casual obligation. This would include going through all alternatives. I mentioned, as an arbitrary number, a repair cost of $2000, although the repair suggestion from P. (#10 Back off, plaster cast etc.) would surely be dearer. As a specialist confronted with a layman, who may have absolutely no knowledge about violins, one could reasonably be expected to show him, for instance, what sort of violin he could buy, for (roughly) the same sum that he would be paying for the improvident repair, pointing out that the replacement violin he could buy instead, wouldn’t cost him, at the bottom line a penny more, and would have a resale value, whilst his fathers certainly doesn’t. Even with full disclosure, one has to wonder about the ulterior motives of a tradesman who recommends a multi thousand $ repair on a $0 violin as his first suggestion, also what prospect he might have suing for payment, in the unlikely case that that should be necessary.

 

 

 

Hi Jacob;

 

Honestly, I believe the major difference in the points you've made above and what I attempted to communicate may be semantic.

 

I absolutely can imagine a provisional repair being performed on said violin.  I simply wouldn't perform it myself (for the reasons outlined in my post)... I would be willing to refer them to another shop should that be the way the owner wished proceed, however.

 

If we Americans are guilty of bastardizing the english language, it may well be through our casual use of it.  Yes.  It is a professional's responsibility to present an accurate picture of the situation and the options available... which I did mention in my post.  I believe I used the words "In my opinion, what a professional has the responsibility of doing is to clearly explain the situation to the client, and inform them of options (if there are any)."  Your language is a bit stronger, but I believe we are saying essentially the same thing... and  I am confident we'd provide nearly the same information to the customer should we have been consulted.  

 

In my case, since I do not stock instruments in the price range of this particular example. While I wouldn't be able to "show" the client examples, I have the advantage of being able to recommend replacement instruments without any possible fear of "conflict of interest"...  as any equivalent replacement would emanate from someone else's shop.

 

I agree with your observation that in a case like this, there is no real "security" present (the violin is useless as collateral, and I'd hate to have to explain to a judge why the repair was performed on a worthless; in terms of market value;  instrument) should payment not be forthcoming... anticipating this is good business... but as I mentioned, I would not accept the job in the first place.

[PASEWICZ]

Jezzupe,

I respect and appreciate the thinking behind your proposal and I am a great fan of carbon fiber, However, it has not been my experience that soundpost patches fail when properly installed. There is a Vuillaume cello in the area that had a back soundpost crack and patch installed 4 or 5 decades ago in a top workshop in New York, and not Bly has it not failed, I could not even find the crack without the aid of UV.

[FiddleDoug]

"Perhaps one of these cleats could even be placed directly beneath the soundpost, if it was wide enough to allow for moving the post around a little?

 

I'd think that the back would need to be dehydrated well before gluing them in, so they wouldn't pull the crack apart if moisture levels get low and the back contracts in the future. And that the ends of the cleats would need to be staggered, and cut at an angle, so a new stress concentration isn't created."

 

David, I know that you're talking about carbon fiber, but that's pretty much where I was going with the 2mm thick overlay maple patch. Quite rigid, large enough to spread pressure, rounded edges to avoid edge stresses, and because it's the same type of wood, and only grain rotated a little, it should avoid shrinkage problems

[HongDa]

No arguments from me.  HongDa should do what he feels he should do, mostly for the money.  I would. 

That's not the case here. I'm certainly not in the league of Jeffrey who has earned his weekend cottage as well as other restorers/makers on this board who are at a much higher level than most of us (and a thanks to all who have shared on this board over the years)  ........but I do have a waiting list with plenty of work ranging from cheap school instruments to dealers who give me long term projects that can be a few thousand in repair/restoration costs.

Later I'll tell of my latest predicament concerning a 1/2 violin repair request.

 

[David Burgess]

 

David, I know that you're talking about carbon fiber, but that's pretty much where I was going with the 2mm thick overlay maple patch. Quite rigid, large enough to spread pressure, rounded edges to avoid edge stresses, and because it's the same type of wood, and only grain rotated a little, it should avoid shrinkage problems

I was thinking that with the much higher bending stiffness of the carbon fiber (maybe 2 or 3 mm thick cleats?), soundpost force on the inside would be much less likely to bend the area, forcing the outside open.

 

Both ideas, of course, would be done with the idea of saving labor costs, compared to doing a conventional inlaid patch. And maybe also adding more mass to that uncommonly thin back, than could be added easily with a conventional inlaid patch.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Jezzupe,

I respect and appreciate the thinking behind your proposal and I am a great fan of carbon fiber, However, it has not been my experience that soundpost patches fail when properly installed. There is a Vuillaume cello in the area that had a back soundpost crack and patch installed 4 or 5 decades ago in a top workshop in New York, and not Bly has it not failed, I could not even find the crack without the aid of UV.

 

I know a Strad 'cello with a similar story...  Think there was a little book published about it's restoration (they didn't mention the back crack in it, however).  

[HongDa]

I hadn't realised what a sentimental lot the Americans allegedly are. I inherited so much stuff from my dad, that I have difficulty finding a place in my 100 square meters to put it. There was masses of choice old wood, that I have gradually been giving away (for free) to various of my ex-employees for years, bit by bit. Also a lot of violins, one of which, for instance, he made in 1959 for the violin teacher of my (late) brother. I sold that last year to a young lady from Taiwan, who it turned out is a customer of “HongDa” to whom I send my best wishes, and which I suppose goes to show what a small world it is. I'm sure that dad would be posthumously very pleased that his fiddle is being put to such good use.

I'm staying away from my proposed repair subject . But I find it very interesting about the different  ideas of sentimental value between different cultures. I've contacted a few people on MN concerning verification in the past but yours was the most intersting being that of a son and father....If I remember correctly, during some internet searches,........it was made the same year you were born............thus making it your sibling......and therfore you should have some sentimental feeling towards it   Just joking of course but I hope this makes for some interesting perspective for everyone. It's a pleasure seeing and hearing it each time it comes to my shop.

 

[PASEWICZ]

I know a Strad 'cello with a similar story...  Think there was a little book published about it's restoration (they didn't mention the back crack in it, however).  

Jeff,

I have multiple x-rays of that cello, but I do not recall if there are ct scans. I would love to find out how thick the patch bed on the back is, any clues?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Jeff,

I have multiple x-rays of that cello, but I do not recall if there are ct scans. I would love to find out how thick the patch bed on the back is, any clues?

 

Not sure how deep the bed is, but a mutual friend in the east has copies of the CT scans.  :-)

[PASEWICZ]

Not sure how deep the bed is, but a mutual friend in the east has copies of the CT scans.  :-)

Maybe someone that enjoys pig cheek?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Maybe someone that enjoys pig cheek?

 

That would be the one!

[HongDa]

In my case, since I do not stock instruments in the price range of this particular example. While I wouldn't be able to "show" the client examples, I have the advantage of being able to recommend replacement instruments without any possible fear of "conflict of interest"...  as any equivalent replacement would emanate from someone else's shop.

The only thing I stock in that price range (Price range of what would be in Western countries) are decent Chinese factory instruments with correct set-up, good strings etc... which would cost more than what I'm charging for the repair.

I could refer him to another shop that sells  European instrument of that price and age range but where I am it would be about 3 times the price as one would get in the West and it would be almost guaranteed to have a stop length of 200mm, in need of a neck reset or neck graft, new pegs and quite likely complete bushing work including the end-pin hole. The only problem this violin has is the back crack---everything else is ok.

People all over Asia travel to Europe and the States or shop on Ebay to get these instruments because the value is quite a bit higher in Asia-----simply because many players want an older European instrument that doesn't cost too much. Sometimes these instruments are completely repaired with new pegs, correct neck sets, etc.... but often they are sold as is and the customers don't know what problems they bought until bringing it to someone like me.

I have an American factory violin....I guess about 90 years old...no flame, painted on purfling and very old looking, it also sounds pretty good.

I sometimes take it down for educational purposes......show it to a customer who is in the market for an older instrument on a budget...I explain it's a 90 year old violin and let them play it.....many times they become quite interested and ask how much it is and I tell them it's 2,000 dollars. They are quite suprised at how cheap it is until I tell them to be very careful when shopping because even if I sold it to them for 150 dollars I'd be ripping them off. It's usually a good eye opener for them

My main point is the value of instruments in Asia is different than that of Western countries.

And the violin black hole of China is just beginning to open. Prices of old Ebay level instruments are all over the place there   

[jezzupe]

I can't help but wonder if nano needles and thread will be developed someday that will allow us to sew repairs like fabric.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

My main point is the value of instruments in Asia is different than that of Western countries.

And the violin black hole of China is just beginning to open. Prices of old Ebay level instruments are all over the place there 

 

Sounds like a challenge.  Is there a heavy tariff  for imports (antique or non-antique) there?  If not terrible, it might be worth cultivating a relationship or two with suppliers out of country.