Pointless to do a Soundpost patch on this back?

[Stephen Faulk]

My question wasn't about honesty regarding the market value or utility value of the instrument. It was about your qualifications to advise them on the family or sentimental value when you said,

"and tell them the instrument they have is not worth fixing, for either party."

 Well, Ok probably would not say it's not worth it for me out loud. It's up to them to decide, but they might ask for an opinion. But you also have to factor in whether you will lose your ass on the job, and of course you would not voice that out loud to a customer.  If that is that you mean. 

 

You have have to take these case by case there's no standard answer to any of this, I'm just giving hypothetical answers. Real life is more nuanced in person when talking over these delicate matters. 

[jacobsaunders]

Maybe Jacob and I are talking at odds...or maybe there's a level of commerce (such as insuring low value instruments or repairs (?)) that I'm unfamiliar with.

 

But I see these as separate issues...that may or may not come together:

 

1. The instrument.  It may be a) high value/high quality b ) high value/low quality c) low value/high quality and d) low value/low quality

2. The repair.  It may be a) a highly skilled repair  b ) a moderately skilled repair c) an amateur repair

3. The market value of the 'final product' - and/or the insurable value of the 'final product'

4. The desire of the customer

 

If I have a low value/low quality instrument and want a highly skilled repair done to it - and am willing to pay for it - knowing full well what the market value will be at the end of it all - I would still expect the repair itself to hold.  The rest of the violin may well fall to pieces around the repair...but hopefully I was warned of that danger...

 

I have no problem with a repairman turning me away.  That's their prerogative.  (Although the anti-DIY sentiment conflicts at this point)...

 

And I admit I don't understand insurance - at what value would you bother to specifically insure an instrument?  And I can't see bothering to insure a VSO even if it had an expensive repair - the repair obviously doesn't add value...

 

So yes...I'm unclear there...

Yes, I am sure that we are talking “at odds”.

In such a situation, since you say you are “unclear”, what you would need most would be sincere, honest guidance from your violin repairing person, which takes both his and your pecuniary situation into consideration. After all, the best deals are always those where both parties come out with an advantage. I think you also misinterpret  “a repairman turning me away”, which is far more a repairman finding the patience to protect you from doing something you will come to regret. Burgesses' “family sentiment” will demise rapidly after the penny drops, and you realise that you have just flushed a couple of thousand dollars down the toilet.

[Rue]

Yes, I am sure that we are talking “at odds”.

In such a situation, since you say you are “unclear”, what you would need most would be sincere, honest guidance from your violin repairing person, which takes both his and your pecuniary situation into consideration. After all, the best deals are always those where both parties come out with an advantage. I think you also misinterpret  “a repairman turning me away”, which is far more a repairman finding the patience to protect you from doing something you will come to regret. Burgesses' “family sentiment” will demise rapidly after the penny drops, and you realise that you have just flushed a couple of thousand dollars down the toilet.

Funny Jacob!

 

I was unclear about the insurance.  I am quite clear about what constitutes a waste of money...

[franciscus]

Maybe I could say a few things here, from some other point of view.

 

I cannot speak about violin repairs at this level, because I am very far from professional in this field, but i am professional in the other field and I do not think that the label "too expensive" glued on your picture by someone must be negative determination in all situation. When I am looking for the solution for my problem, I ask professionals labeled as "too expensive" first, in order to establish the north border of the ball park. If I receive regularly priced offer from them, I decide to go this way, pleasantly surprised. That pleasant surprise is the PLUS, not the MINUS.

 

I know the price for my work that I am trying to do according to best of my abilities every time, regardless on the customers. If I think that the customers deserves lower price, I tune the price and I tell him that and I tell him why. If I think that the asked job is specially interesting to me, sometimes, I work pro bono, but, without changing my standards.

 

When I was student, I played cheap Czech violin. These days, I found the almost identical violin and paid for it minimum three time more than it is worth. I still have to repair it and spend at least US$ 100 for the parts and strings, but I am still very happy.

 

My father passed very young and I do not have many things inherited from him. One of these things is the watch - DOXA one, that I can still buy as NOS for some US$ 150. I payed more than US$ 300 for various repairs but I have my dad's watch on my hand, and it does no matter that it is not the most accurate watch in the universe.

 

 We are the humans, not the spreadsheets.

[jacobsaunders]

Funny Jacob!

 

I was unclear about the insurance.  I am quite clear about what constitutes a waste of money...

Oh sorry! One insures a violin for the amount that one can reasonably expect to be able to buy an equivalent replacement in a respectable retail shop, should it become necessary. (Wiederbeschafungswert, if you still speak German) In the OP case, nothing.

[Rue]

Vielen dank. Ich spreche Deutsch , aber mit einem traurigen Wortschatz.

[David Burgess]

 Burgesses' “family sentiment” will demise rapidly after the penny drops, and you realise that you have just flushed a couple of thousand dollars down the toilet.

It appears that "family sentiment" matters may be approached differently in hyper-practical Germanic   cultures.

[jacobsaunders]

It appears that "family sentiment" matters may be approached differently in hyper-practical Germanic   cultures.

Funny that: I had always assumed that the Americans were a bunch of Germans, who thought that they could speak English

[David Burgess]

Funny that: I had always assumed that the Americans were a bunch of Germans, who thought that they could speak English

Dang it, I'm trying to figure out whether to spend the money to have some videos of my deceased Dad transferred from old tape and film to DVD. The cost to do so will profoundly exceed the market value of the DVDs, and I can't find my slide rule to figure out if my Father is  worth it.

[FiddleDoug]

Do you think that 2mm thick patch would give more support than a smaller patch with cleats as close to the soundpost area as possible? Or would it also eventually crack also?

My thoughts on a large, 2mm (or thicker) overlay patch is that you are almost doubling the thickness of the back in that area, and spreading the pressure out over a much larger area. Figure out the area of your small round cleat with two longer (cross grain- watch for wood shrinkage), and compare it to the area of a much larger oval type patch. Pounds per square inch. You could almost look at the larger patch as an upside down sound post patch. My thoughts (sure, they may be uncoventional) are that, if you're talking budget restraints and are doing this on a sentimental value instrument, you probably wouldn't have to remove the back,do a full cast, or excavate for a conventional patch. I would probably just make some kind of small support cast for clamping, fit a surface overlay patch (rotate the patch by a couple of grain lines), glue it in, and taper the edges. Of course, the client would have to agree to a disclaimer on the work, but if the client really wants to get it playing without breaking the bank, that might do it.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Holy cow...  I was off playing a gig in a club out of town last night, and it looks like this thread took off like a racehorse.

 

I do have comments...  but need to have some coffee before I attempt a rather lengthy response.  There are many valid points here, but I believe there is a great deal of semantic misunderstanding.

 

Try not to start a skirmish before I get on the keyboard later OK?

[Stephen Faulk]

I agree with Jacobs concept of sentimentality:

 

If the sentiment is free of charge it can well up high in a descendent heart, but when great grandfathers memory begins to cost money well that is is a sliding scale of emotional worth. You don't want to get caught on that scale. That is for the customer to decode once they have facts about the instrument. Your job is deliver the facts of the state of the object and if appropriate to give an opinion on the viability of repair vs. cost. 

 

You have to be objective like a surgeon; you can't say well I know you really love grandpas old liver, it's ok we'll pour money into fixing grandpas old dead liver. It will still be a dead liver. He really needs a new liver. 

 

Videos and photos of the grandpa or grandma are in another category of personal worth and are not a good example to hold up as equivalent to an object that grandma owned. Images of grandma out value all other ephemera usually. When there is a fire you grab photo albums and leave the house, you don't fumble for grandmas teapot over images of her. 

[PASEWICZ]

Stephen,

I agree with all of this. The question is when this is all said and done and you have come to an agreement on cost; do you stand behind the completed work that you agreed to do, that the customer wanted to have done, and the customer has paid the agreed price?

And related to that, do you alter your willingness to stand behind your work based on the perceived monetary value of the instrument in question?

[HongDa]

I think Jacob's suggestion makes the most sense. Glue it from the outside and hang it on the wall. That can be patched later when it's identified as a fine Strad. or DG.  

Is that what he meant? I took it differently.

And I doubt it will ever turn out to be a Strad. If there were any chance of that I'd be PMing a few different people on this board asking if they'd do or recommend the right person for the job.

[Carl Stross]

Is that what he meant? I took it differently.

And I doubt it will ever turn out to be a Strad. If there were any chance of that I'd be PMing a few different people on this board asking if they'd do or recommend the right person for the job.

 

I believe so. It's the sensible thing to do.

[PASEWICZ]

Is that what he meant? I took it differently.

And I doubt it will ever turn out to be a Strad. If there were any chance of that I'd be PMing a few different people on this board asking if they'd do or recommend the right person for the job.

Well there you go, another damn issue.

If you do want to base whether or not you are willing to warrant your work on the monetary value of the instrument, who's valuation do you go by? Is the customer going to take the word of the repair person that does not even warrant their own work? And if the the commercial value goes up dramatically do you stick with the original appraisal or are you now obligated by the new market price?

Doesn't it make a lot more sense to do a good job always and stand behind and warrant all of your work? And after explaining everything you possibly can about the instrument, doesn't it make sense to allow adults to make their own choices about how they choose to spend their money?

[Stephen Faulk]

Stephen,

I agree with all of this. The question is when this is all said and done and you have come to an agreement on cost; do you stand behind the completed work that you agreed to do, that the customer wanted to have done, and the customer has paid the agreed price?

And related to that, do you alter your willingness to stand behind your work based on the perceived monetary value of the instrument in question?

 I think a principle in deciding whether or not you take a job depends in your willingness to stand behind it after it's paid for. In other words I've declined to do jobs that I thought would be difficult to stand behind and I prefer to only take jobs that I can stand behind. In an ideal world. 

 

And I've had the best job I could do come undone and I've done it over for free. So as a criteria for taking a job, hopefully standing behind  it is possible. I really don't want to take a job I can't back up. Again, in an ideal situation. 

[Carl Stross]

Doesn't it make a lot more sense to do a good job always and stand behind and warrant all of your work? And after explaining everything you possibly can about the instrument, doesn't it make sense to allow adults to make their own choices about how they choose to spend their money?

 

Sure it does but I don't think that's what Jacob meant. I thought he meant he's not going to bother with it and consequently, he's not going to "own" the crack.

[HongDa]

My thoughts on a large, 2mm (or thicker) overlay patch is that you are almost doubling the thickness of the back in that area, and spreading the pressure out over a much larger area. Figure out the area of your small round cleat with two longer (cross grain- watch for wood shrinkage), and compare it to the area of a much larger oval type patch. Pounds per square inch. You could almost look at the larger patch as an upside down sound post patch. My thoughts (sure, they may be uncoventional) are that, if you're talking budget restraints and are doing this on a sentimental value instrument, you probably wouldn't have to remove the back,do a full cast, or excavate for a conventional patch. I would probably just make some kind of small support cast for clamping, fit a surface overlay patch (rotate the patch by a couple of grain lines), glue it in, and taper the edges. Of course, the client would have to agree to a disclaimer on the work, but if the client really wants to get it playing without breaking the bank, that might do it.

Thanks Doug.....with the mention of rotating the patch.....I'm warming up to the idea.

.......................................................................................................................................

As I've said in other replies.....I've glued post cracks on quite a few cheap school instruments along with a few cleats. I've had many of these instruments return years later and the cracks held........just as I mentioned several people here have screwed, doweled and pinned broken cello necks on school instruments....usually with success, and I doubt with any guarantees.

I explained carefully the risks to the customer and even tried to persuade him to save the money for an upgrade. He knows well the value of the instrument.

I'm not charging him thousands of dollars for this job. It's probably less than half the cost of his plane ticket where he flies home from for school holidays twice a year.

It requires gluing the crack which goes together quite easily, top removal, a few cleats and possibly the patch. I think a bridge also and of course a new post. It's not a button restoration job or a neck-graft.

[HongDa]

I believe so. It's the sensible thing to do.

Is it the sensible thing to do with all cheap school instruments? Shall I tell the kids at the orphanage that all their instruments are eventually going to be trashed and they better pray someone donates stuff that is better?

[PASEWICZ]

Sure it does but I don't think that's what Jacob meant. I thought he meant he's not going to bother with it and consequently, he's not going to "own" the crack.

That is very kind Carl.

Post #12

I would beg to differ if you don't mind. You can be damn sure that I wouldn't “own the crack” if I did it.

[Stephen Faulk]

Stephen,

And related to that, do you alter your willingness to stand behind your work based on the perceived monetary value of the instrument in question?

 

This is difficult question to give a simple answer to because it has so many handles and variables. Some times yes, and sometimes no. Part of that depends on whether or not that particular kind of repair has a track record for coming undone. 

 

One thing I will add, I often say to someone in these kinds of talks, look I've given you a professional estimation of the situation, would like my personal opinion? You can take my personal opinion under consideration as well, but it's only my opinion. I think it important to be clear about what is professionally on the table and what you can share with candor with a customer. It has to do with the customers experience with asking for repair work and other factors. Some people are more objective than others and personal objectivity of the customer needs to be gauged. 

 

All customers are different, some give you great latitude to express opinions and with others best not to get too deep. I think in the case of perceived value and repair the judgement is highly dependent on the customers judgements after you lay out the facts. I would tend to think the customer leads here and you have the right to accept or refuse to do the work. You may or may not want to tell the customer why. 

 

Theres no Unified Field Theory of repair ethics, it's all ad hock and honesty best I can tell. 

[PASEWICZ]

I think a principle in deciding whether or not you take a job depends in your willingness to stand behind it after it's paid for. In other words I've declined to do jobs that I thought would be difficult to stand behind and I prefer to only take jobs that I can stand behind. In an ideal world. 

 

And I've had the best job I could do come undone and I've done it over for free. So as a criteria for taking a job, hopefully standing behind  it is possible. I really don't want to take a job I can't back up. Again, in an ideal situation.

I completely agree.

[HongDa]

And if you do the abbreviated repair, they might tell their friends that your repairs fail. And if you do the more extensive repair, they can tell their friends you were too expensive. No easy answers.

 

If I was to do work in a way to save the customer money, resulting in an increased probability of failure, I'd probably have the customer sign something saying they understood that the repair is a compromise, the risks of future failure had been explained, and it was their choice to accept those risks. The shops reputation is on the line with everything that goes out the door.

 

And if I did the more thorough repair, I'd probably get something signed too, saying it had been explained and was understood that the chosen repairs are costing more than the market value of the violin, and that this method of repair is the customer's choice.

 

Personally, I don't mind sending customers away if I think that their goals, and mine, aren't a good fit. I've made exceptions though, when I was quite sure the work they were going to get elsewhere would be chit.

Luckily I don't run across these situations often. But as you suggest, I will probably write something on the receipt to have them sign if it happens again. But even then I'll be careful of who I make such arrangements with........some potential customers are just best to be avoided.......and even with a disclaimer they don't have to show or tell others that they signed it.

I once had a cellist bring in an instrument for a tone adjustment. I asked if I could check and re-set the post and she agreed. I began to release the string tension when she then started instructing me on what to do and not to do. I just tuned it back up, laid a straight edge across the top and pointed out that the tone problem was because the top was sinking in.....this was a new Italian cello. She asked what she could do and I told her to take it back to the maker for a new top which should be free of charge.....and in the meantime to discuss with her teacher about using different strings that may temporarily give a better tone result.

She never returned and her teacher stopped sending her other students to me and instead go to the chit shop.

[Ben Hebbert]

Hmm, not often that I get to sit back and throw popcorn! 

 

Sentimentality is something that shifts very easily and can be irrational. I don't want to underrate the importance of someone's sentimentality towards something, but that can change when you've quoted them an honest price for all the work it needs.

 

Another shift in sentimentality which applies in this case is when they discover that the violin was never particularly good in the first place, and they can get something much better for their bucks. Would their grandfather (or whoever) have really wanted to curse generations of his family with a stodgy sounding heirloom when a decent modern Chinese violin will play ten times better? Just askin'