Pointless to do a Soundpost patch on this back?

[HongDa]

A customer brought this in and has no idea how the crack happened. I suspect a gentle bump while it was in the case----the back is very thin. He hadn't played it in years and then discovered the crack.
I told him it's not really worth repairing but he'd still like to because of sentimental value.

The problem is that in the area where a patch would go, the thickness is only 2.4mm. It seems to me doing a patch in this case would be pointless as it could easily crack open again because of being too thin. The entire back is very thin.

On cheap school instruments, including cellos,  I've often just glued somewhat long cleats above and below the area of the soundpost position after gluing the crack closed, and surpisingly after years they have never opened.
I suggested we try that on his instrument.....and possibly a strip of veneer at the post area just to thicken the area up a little.

Any opinions on this situation?

[jacobsaunders]

It would be better for everyone to sell him/her a new instrument

[HongDa]

It would be better for everyone to sell him/her a new instrument

Ha!    Well that possibility exists in the future. But for now he insists on playing this one once again....his grandfather bought it for him when he was a child or something like that. If I don't do it, he'll take it elsewhere.

[FiddleDoug]

With a back that thin, you might consider overlaying a thicker patch than veneer. I'd consider something a couple of mm thick. The added mass would still be way less than a normally thick back, and something that thick would both stiffen the area, and spread the force out. It's also less expensive than a conventional patch, and is reversible.

[HongDa]

With a back that thin, you might consider overlaying a thicker patch than veneer. I'd consider something a couple of mm thick. The added mass would still be way less than a normally thick back, and something that thick would both stiffen the area, and spread the force out. It's also less expensive than a conventional patch, and is reversible.

I was thinking about something like that.....bringing the post area up to around 4.5mm. It would make for lots of cursing for people in the future fitting posts, but I guess by tapering that side of the patch and extending it a little more towards the center joint it would make that problem minimal.

Thinking of something like this but the cleats would be angled on the ends:

[PASEWICZ]

If you must repair this you will need to do it in a way that will not fail, once you take this on and attempt it, you own the crack. Putting a veneer over the crack will make a very nice hinge, probably not what you intend.

That being said, the best shot you have is to do a traditional soundpost patch taking the bed down very thin..3. After, a breast patch for bulk in the whole area and graduate to traditional thickness. If you have never done a soundpost patch on a back, a quick tip; When you apply the glue to the back, especially when it is this thin, it will want to buckle and distort. Apply glue to the patch first, then the bed and get it in clamps quickly. Good luck.

[Brad Dorsey]

Jerry,  I've never done a back SP patch, but I have a violin that needs one.  What are the pros and cons of doing it with or without the ribs attached to the back?  Is it even possible to do it with the ribs on?

[FiddleDoug]

I was thinking about something like that.....bringing the post area up to around 4.5mm. It would make for lots of cursing for people in the future fitting posts, but I guess by tapering that side of the patch and extending it a little more towards the center joint it would make that problem minimal.

Thinking of something like this but the cleats would be angled on the ends:

crack.jpg

I wasn't talking about a dinky round cleat. I was talking about a patch at least as big as a conventional sound post patch. At least a couple of inches long, and maybe 1 1/2 inches wide, and at least 2 mm thick. This would, of course, have to be chalk fitted.

[PASEWICZ]

I wasn't talking about a dinky round cleat. I was talking about a patch at least as big as a conventional sound post patch. At least a couple of inches long, and maybe 1 1/2 inches wide, and at least 2 mm thick. This would, of course, have to be chalk fitted.

Yes, I was refering to the original veneer before your comment. Although, thinning the original would shorten the crack"lever" to make it more likely to stay closed.

[PASEWICZ]

Jerry, I've never done a back SP patch, but I have a violin that needs one. What are the pros and cons of doing it with or without the ribs attached to the back? Is it even possible to do it with the ribs on?

I do them with the back off, always in a full plaster cast. The ribs on would complicate things in a way that I am not comfortable with.

Always be extremely careful removing the back from the blocks. The button is very susceptible to breaking at the purfling, and if there is even a hint of things going south with it, I will remove the block, replace it, and do a neck reset ...be aware with the estimate.

I can not warn you enough about the behavior of the patch bed when glue is applied, especially on slab wood.

[DGV]

Wouldn't it be easier to just carve a new back?

[jacobsaunders]

If you must repair this you will need to do it in a way that will not fail, once you take this on and attempt it, you own the crack. Putting a veneer over the crack will make a very nice hinge, probably not what you intend.

That being said, the best shot you have is to do a traditional soundpost patch taking the bed down very thin..3. After, a breast patch for bulk in the whole area and graduate to traditional thickness. If you have never done a soundpost patch on a back, a quick tip; When you apply the glue to the back, especially when it is this thin, it will want to buckle and distort. Apply glue to the patch first, then the bed and get it in clamps quickly. Good luck.

I would beg to differ if you don't mind. You can be damn sure that I wouldn't “own the crack” if I did it.

One should always check if the violin is worth anything to start with. Doing an expensive repair on an objectively dust-bin ready violin, which will be a hum drum school violin with a repaired SP crack in the back, even when you're finished, is a sure procedure to have a long term furiously pissed off customer, who will not darken your door in a hurry ever again. A good comparison would be the garage, who does a $10.000 repair on a 25 year old rusty Volvo.

Since it's an adult beginner here, who just wants to try out violin playing on the violin his dad left him, it will be more likely than not, that he hangs it up on the wall as a souvenir shortly anyway, since violin playing is rumoured to be rather more difficult than non-violinists often imagine.

In the (unlikely) case that he will become an enthusiastic and proficient violinist, he would be better off with an intact violin, as I said above, and will have paid to have had his dads school violin repaired for no avail, and will therefore have a diminished budget to buy a new one. If the purpose is, to afford the heir the opportunity to try a bit of violin playing out on his dads violin, I would imagine that just glueing it from the outside would be absolutely fit for purpose here, since one can still put it in the dust-bin later anyway.

[David Burgess]

Jacob, post #1 explains that the violin has sentimental value, and that it has already been explained to the owner that the violin is not worth repairing, monetary-recovery and utility wise.. Knowing that, the owner wants it done anyway.

 

What to do? Refuse the job? Do a slipshod job, placing your economic priority system over that of the owner? Do the best job you know how to do, aware that the customer is informed and willing to pay for it? Assert to the owner that his family memories are worth less than he thinks they are?

What?

[PASEWICZ]

I would beg to differ if you don't mind. You can be damn sure that I wouldn't “own the crack” if I did .

If HongDa repairs this crack in a way that does not hold, the reflection is on him for doing a job that was inadequate.

Once again, people assign values to things for different reasons. It may not be worth it to you to fix it if you owned it, but the violin may be of great value to the customer. If it is worth doing, do it right. If you do a job for someone you should be willing to stand behind your work, we do.

[Carl Stross]

Jacob, post #1 describes that the violin has sentimental value, and that it has already been explained to the owner that the violin is not worth repairing. The owner wants it done anyway.

 

 

 

I think Jacob's suggestion makes the most sense. Glue it from the outside and hang it on the wall. That can be patched later when it's identified as a fine Strad. or DG.  Meanwhile, to learn ( ??? ) to play violin, most adults require only the cheapest Chinese outfit. I mean, it needs to last about three days...  Violin learned. Moving on.

[Carl Stross]

The problem is that in the area where a patch would go, the thickness is only 2.4mm. It seems to me doing a patch in this case would be pointless as it could easily crack open again because of being too thin. The entire back is very thin.

 

 

Could you not patch it thicker ? At 3.5mm you'd be in Strad's range.

[Violadamore]

I think Jacob's suggestion makes the most sense. Glue it from the outside and hang it on the wall. That can be patched later when it's identified as a fine Strad. or DG.  Meanwhile, to learn ( ??? ) to play violin, most adults require only the cheapest Chinese outfit. I mean, it needs to last about three days...  Violin learned. Moving on.

After sweeping my stable I read your comment and had to hose off my boots again.  Both you and Jacob apparently missed where the OP said in #1 that the customer was out of practice, but a player, as well as #3 where it's noted that he's had the violin since childhood, when it was purchased for him by a relative.  He's not an adult beginner, and if he was, your observation is unfair to that species as I know them.  

[jacobsaunders]

If HongDa repairs this crack in a way that does not hold, the reflection is on him for doing a job that was inadequate.

Once again, people assign values to things for different reasons. It may not be worth it to you to fix it if you owned it, but the violin may be of great value to the customer. If it is worth doing, do it right. If you do a job for someone you should be willing to stand behind your work, we do.

I certainly wouldn't “stand behind” a (say) $2.000 repair on a worthless violin even if “you do”. I hope people ask what their violins are worth before they let you repair anything. The situation with the customer sounds like a salesmanship question to me, apart from the question if you want him as a long term customer, or just wish to cash in once.

[Carl Stross]

After sweeping my stable I read your comment and had to hose off my boots again.  Both you and Jacob apparently missed where the OP said in #1 that the customer was out of practice, but a player, as well as #3 where it's noted that he's had the violin since childhood, when it was purchased for him by a relative.  He's not an adult beginner, and if he was, your observation is unfair to that species as I know them.  

 

It's MN not the Supreme Court... What do you expect from us ? 

[PASEWICZ]

I certainly wouldn't “stand behind” a (say) $2.000 repair on a worthless violin even if “you do”. I hope people ask what their violins are worth before they let you repair anything. The situation with the customer sounds like a salesmanship question to me, apart from the question if you want him as a long term customer, or just wish to cash in once.

Yes, we stand behind our work regardless of the value of the instrument. Integrity is not cost dependent.

How much does an instrument have to be worth for you to stand behind your work?

[Rue]

Yes...I have to ask too.  What difference does the value of the instrument make...to the quality of the repair?

 

If my violin is a VSO worth $100 - but I opt to spend $1000 on repairs...knowing it's not 'worth it' from a monetary POV - but the repair falls apart for whatever reason (nothing to do with the quality of the VSO)...shouldn't someone be standing behind the 'work' that was done?

[Violadamore]

I certainly wouldn't “stand behind” a (say) $2.000 repair on a worthless violin........

For one of the very few times on here, I'm truly astonished at a post.   

[uncle duke]

I certainly wouldn't “stand behind” a (say) $2.000 repair on a worthless violin even if “you do”. I hope people ask what their violins are worth before they let you repair anything. The situation with the customer sounds like a salesmanship question to me, apart from the question if you want him as a long term customer, or just wish to cash in once.

Why not?   It's not like the customer is telling you what they want you to do.  You are the one with the expertise.  They need your help.

[HongDa]

I wasn't talking about a dinky round cleat. I was talking about a patch at least as big as a conventional sound post patch. At least a couple of inches long, and maybe 1 1/2 inches wide, and at least 2 mm thick. This would, of course, have to be chalk fitted.

Do you think that 2mm thick patch would give more support than a smaller patch with cleats as close to the soundpost area as possible? Or would it also eventually crack also?

[HongDa]

If you must repair this you will need to do it in a way that will not fail, once you take this on and attempt it, you own the crack. Putting a veneer over the crack will make a very nice hinge, probably not what you intend.

That being said, the best shot you have is to do a traditional soundpost patch taking the bed down very thin..3. After, a breast patch for bulk in the whole area and graduate to traditional thickness. If you have never done a soundpost patch on a back, a quick tip; When you apply the glue to the back, especially when it is this thin, it will want to buckle and distort. Apply glue to the patch first, then the bed and get it in clamps quickly. Good luck.

Thank you Mr. Pasewicz, and I have done quite a few soundpost patches on backs, your advice of a breast patch obviously sounds like the sure fix in this situation and with the financial level of this customer's family I'm sure I could have convinced them to do it that way and gotten them to lay down a nice fat deposit for the job......which would be at least double the value of the instrument.

Initially I told the player (he's not a beginner, just hasn't played in a few years) it would require a sounpost patch but that I myself wouldn't do that on his instrument because of it not being worth it even considering sentimental value. When I then checked the thickness and realized a patch would probably be pointless he asked if there was any alternative.

I spent well over an hour explaining the situation to him but he was quite determined. So I told him the only alternative (of which I charge quite a modest fee for) is what I do on very cheap school instruments and that's just gluing the crack and cleating. He asked if this method would work and I told him there is no guarantee but it has worked on the instruments I have done it on. I do periodic volunteer maintenance on instruments for an orphanage orchestra with terrible instruments and I often have no choice sometimes but to do repairs like this just so they can keep playing.

Anyway he's a decent person and he fully understands what the risks are and decided to do it. Worst case scenario is the crack opens again, he then uses it as decoration and memories and upgrades to a nice instrument which I beleive is his future intention.

As for owning the crack; I understand what you mean. I always stand by my work but there are just sometimes cases such as these that all I can do is persuade against it and explain the risks if a customer is determined to give it a try. In the case of this customer he seems decent and understanding enough that if it fails he isn't going to turn around and blame me.

As an example.....there is a very long thread on here about pinning, dowling, screwing,  broken off cello necks of school cellos. A lot of advice on that thread and several of the methods were said to have held well. From that thread though I didn't get the impression that anyone using these methods would stand behind and guarantee such repairs.

..........................................................................................................................................................................

In any case I didn't think this post would stir up such a hornets nest and give me a nice good clobbering.

I suppose from now on when a customer with an instrument with sentimental value enters my shop and wants a repair done even though the instrument isn't worth it......I'll just refuse  and let them take it to another shop that will likely charge more than me.

And then they can tell all their friends what a mean person I am for not fixing their instrument and telling them it's worthless. I've actually done that before and the customer went to another shop and is constantly online recommending them.

My apologies to everyone for making this disturbing post. I will now go out on my balcony and give myself 20 lashes with my Cat O' Nine Tails made of cello strings.