What difference does the quality in fittings make?

[BigFryMan]

Hi guys,

 

Now that I've completed violin number one and overall I am very happy with the tonal outcome (some of the finer workmanship and finishing obviously need much further improvement) - I am about to embark on violin #2.

There's such a wide range of fittings available that I am a little overwhelmed for choice. Does the quality of fittings on a violin make a significant difference to its tone or playability? Do people tend to notice this? I am intending to use simple Guarneri style fittings for this violin and here is an example of a cheap set: 

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/350942393844?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Is this going to devalue a violin significantly?

 

[not telling]

That's a very good question. Roger Hargrave told me to always get the best of the best fittings, because it's extremely important for several reasons. He told me those reasons and I won't mention them here because it's too obvious. If you were a player buying a $10,000+ instrument and you found out you were turning $40 (or $4) pegs made somewhere where artisans aren't paid well, would you be put off?

I spoke with another very prominent maker about this, who said players don't generally know the difference and the cheapies are just fine.

Both makers make a living.

I think both of them are right.

[BigFryMan]

That's a very good question. Roger Hargrave told me to always get the best of the best fittings, because it's extremely important for several reasons. He told me those reasons and I won't mention them here because it's too obvious. If you were a player buying a $10,000+ instrument and you found out you were turning $40 pegs made somewhere where artisans aren't paid well, would you be put off?

I spoke with another very prominent maker about this, who said players don't generally know the difference and the cheapies are just fine.

Both makers make a living.

I think both of them are right.

Very valid reasoning on both counts I think!

If I were to make an instrument that was selling for $5k and up (I wish!), I think I'd be splashing out on nice handmade fittings as that would be a marketable/saleable feature of the finished violin and they wouldn't factor much of a percentage of the cost because the labor component is so high.

I think for anything in the $1.5-3k market (more likely  ), the cheapies may suit. The owner can always get the fittings switched out later on. I as a player have never really notices the quality of fittings before I started building. Having the perfect chinrest to fit my posture was the only thing I ever spent time messing with. I only ever noticed fittings if they were ornate and looked special.

[Rue]

I would expect better fitting quality on a higher end violin.

People can also easily change fittings if they want to upgrade.

I would be happy enough with those on a less expensive violin provided they are not "obviously" inexpensive.

*lol. You posted while I was typing...

[Dwight Brown]

I think the bridge from that set would have to be a throw away. A good bridge blank should cost as much or more than the whole set.

I don't think you need a set of hand made fittings, and I have no clue what any of them are really made of. Just a thought

dlb

[Will L]

I'm sure the scientists among us will have opinions better than mine, which is:  the lighter the better, in general.  Different sets can add a lot of weight; or take off a lot of weight.

 

But as for the looks, why bother to put expensive sets on a first violin?  If after the violin plays in you can always put on something nicer if you think the violin is worth it.

 

Overly fancy sets look ridiculous if they outclass the instrument.  Hokey!  But the absolute WORST combination is "cheap AND fancy."

 

As for choice of wood, some violins look just fine with ebony, while others look better with the more brownish or red-brownish woods. 

 

The set you picked looks good enough.  In the future you might keep this in mind:  Pegs are most comfortable to the player when they are flat—or relatively so— on the "peg head."  (The peg head is the face the thumb and index finger contact.) 

[BigFryMan]

I think the bridge from that set would have to be a throw away. A good bridge blank should cost as much or more than the whole set.

I don't think you need a set of hand made fittings, and I have no clue what any of them are really made of. Just a thought

dlb

Thanks Dwight, you read my mind! Didn't want to compromise on tone in any way and was planning to get a high quality bridge blank. What do you use?

[deans]

Poor tailpieces can break.

[Wee B. Bridges]

Hi guys,

 

Now that I've completed violin number one and overall I am very happy with the tonal outcome (some of the finer workmanship and finishing obviously need much further improvement) - I am about to embark on violin #2.

There's such a wide range of fittings available that I am a little overwhelmed for choice. Does the quality of fittings on a violin make a significant difference to its tone or playability? Do people tend to notice this? I am intending to use simple Guarneri style fittings for this violin and here is an example of a cheap set: 

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/350942393844?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Is this going to devalue a violin significantly?

 

 

I would not recommend putting $1200.00 fittings on your #2 violin.   There is a lot to be learned between here and there.

 

As the overall quality of your instruments improve,  you will know when the time comes to invest in quality fittings.

[Dwight Brown]

Thanks Dwight, you read my mind! Didn't want to compromise on tone in any way and was planning to get a high quality bridge blank. What do you use?

God knows, I don't cut bridges!  The bridges that are on my instruments are Aubert, and Milo Stamm.  http://www.milostamm.com/e_index.html   I have been pleased with the Stamm bridge on my usual viola and I think they are quite good.  I don't know an american dealer to send you to, but I'm sure someone will.

 

DLB

[riverview]

You can now buy a quality fitting set from 150-500 U.S. I think it's a statement from the maker. After you have made several violins you may want to make you own fittings. This completes the true handmade instrument.

[Janito]

I would not recommend putting $1200.00 fittings on your #2 violin.   There is a lot to be learned between here and there.

 

As the overall quality of your instruments improve,  you will know when the time comes to invest in quality fittings.

 

Good advice.

 

Also note:

 

> that the quality of the setup can eclipse any effects of fittings.

> different violins react differently to different types of woods used for fittings

> the choice of chin-rest can affect the tone

[ctanzio]

The tailpiece and chinrest can vibrate. How this affects the violin tone depends on how close the natural frequencies of their vibration modes are to notes that are being played. This can get complicated in a hurry. It is not always a bad thing, but frequently is.

 

I would suggest that you make them non-factors, i.e., set the energy/amplitude of vibrations as low as possible. A simple way to do this is to make them as light as possible. So select these fittings based on weight. If you have to spend a few extra bucks to do so I think it is money well spent.

[DGV]

I saw a post on MN showing someone tuning an end button.  I'm sure EVERYTHING is important.

[Dwight Brown]

I do notice that the majority of high end violins are set up with heart shaped boxwood pegs with black pips and collars, Hill or French style boxwood tailpiece. I have a sneaking suspicion that it makes very little difference.  It may be that everyone wanted to set up instruments like Hill and Sons did it?  The tailpiece can make a difference in the sound under your ear, but I have no idea if it amounts to anything out in the room, same goes for the chinrest.

 

Lately I have changed to a center chinrest and have noticed that an awful lot of my violin/viola idols hold the thing in the middle regardless of the style of chinrest employed.  I certainly notice differences in sound with a change of chinrest style or material, but again I have no idea if it is audible in the room.

 

dlb

[Craig Tucker]

  The tailpiece can make a difference in the sound under your ear, but I have no idea if it amounts to anything out in the room, same goes for the chinrest.

 

 

Well, arguments can and usually will go the entire range, in both directions, on this point.

Because these things CAN really alter the output of SOME violins, dramatically... in SOME ways.

And on other violins, I would say, the majority of violins out there, these things amount to a  very very minimal change in the actual 'voice' of the instrument - period.

 

but, fittings can, occasionally, alter some of the voice characteristics present in a specific violin for the better, or for the worse... for example I have seen them - changing fittings that is, put in and/or remove a wolf note, in one violin, (one that I made) it was the damnedest thing.

Poof - now it's gone.

[gowan]

Some points concerning fittings:

 

1. Ease of use is important.  Most of this is proper installation

2. Weight is important.  Ebony is heavy, noticeably heavier than boxwood or rosewood.  If you are playing for long stretches you might prefer lighter fittings.

3. I like the appearance of the fittings to enhance the look  of the violin.  Changing fittings is not all that easy.  New pegs have to be shaped to fit, and getting the tailpiece installed properly to get the right space between the tailpiece and the bridge is not easy either.  If I were buying a new instrument and I didn't like the fittings on it I'd ask the dealer or maker to change them.

[PASEWICZ]

Good quality fittings are easier to make work well, something that could be advantageous at this point. Also, rosewood pegs will tend to flair at the pegbox easier than either ebony or boxwood making replacement necessary sooner.

[uncle duke]

 Also, rosewood pegs will tend to flair at the pegbox easier than either ebony or boxwood making replacement necessary sooner.

Would sooner be 4-5 years or 25-30 years?

[PASEWICZ]

Would sooner be 4-5 years or 25-30 years?

I am sure it depends on the quality of the wood, however I do not recall having to replace rosewood fittings under 5 years old.

[Matthew Noykos]

I do notice that the majority of high end violins are set up with heart shaped boxwood pegs with black pips and collars, Hill or French style boxwood tailpiece. I have a sneaking suspicion that it makes very little difference. It may be that everyone wanted to set up instruments like Hill and Sons did it? The tailpiece can make a difference in the sound under your ear, but I have no idea if it amounts to anything out in the room, same goes for the chinrest.

Lately I have changed to a center chinrest and have noticed that an awful lot of my violin/viola idols hold the thing in the middle regardless of the style of chinrest employed. I certainly notice differences in sound with a change of chinrest style or material, but again I have no idea if it is audible in the room.

dlb

Interesting thing about Hill cello pegs. I just had one of the symphony members in the shop and I was showing her the pegs for the group build viola (which are hill heart as you know). She has very long hair and said hill pegs irritate her because her hair is always getting stuck in the peg. I never thought about this when I play cello, but I have short hair. Anybody else experience this? If a lot of people have this complaint, I might stay away from heart cello pegs. Of course for violin/viola it doesn't matter.

Also interesting, I once heard about a fittings dealer who said in Europe he would sell out of rosewood and no one touched the boxwood. In North America it was the opposite. Anybody know this to be true?

[Dwight Brown]

I have seen the postyre pegs for 'cello that have no heads on the near side.  You use a sort of a key to turn them.  I would think the newer geared pegs would be wonderful for 'cello.

 

 

dlb

[David Burgess]

Interesting thing about Hill cello pegs. I just had one of the symphony members in the shop and I was showing her the pegs for the group build viola (which are hill heart as you know). She has very long hair and said hill pegs irritate her because her hair is always getting stuck in the peg. I never thought about this when I play cello, but I have short hair. Anybody else experience this?

Yes. I generally don't use what I've heard women call "haircatcher pegs" any more on cellos.

[Rue]

Am I the only wondering why they're not putting their hair up when they play?

[David Burgess]

Am I the only wondering why they're not putting their hair up when they play?

Even if they were to always do that, including when practicing, it doesn't always solve the problem. Consider how the relative positions of hair and pegs can change for a cellist, like when leaning forward to turn a page, turning the head to look at something, or picking a mute or piece of music up off the floor during practice.