Could this be a Stradivari neck?

[Michael Appleman]

A shame the lower pegbox face has been removed. Not that that would have been conclusive evidence, but a mould letter certainly would increase the likelihood.

 

hey that's funny, the Bongartz caption mentions the "original fingerboard and tailpiece," but not the neck!

[Bruce Tai]

A picture of Carl Flesch. Not sure if he is holding the Brancaccio Strad, but that instrument does not have an ivory neck. 

 

http://www.jose-sanchez-penzo.net/data/cf_wviolin_164x264.jpg

[Bruce Tai]

A shame the lower pegbox face has been removed. Not that that would have been conclusive evidence, but a mould letter certainly would increase the likelihood.

 

hey that's funny, the Bongartz caption mentions the "original fingerboard and tailpiece," but not the neck!

 

I thought the fingerboard and tailpiece were later made. And the neck was original and made by Stradivari. So they got it the opposite way. 

[Bruce Tai]

I am not sure if this is a genuine Brancaccio Strad neck, but I am pretty sure its the same neck as that on Bongartz auction from 2008. In any case worth to explore and you owe me a drink. 

 

If you swing by Taiwan I will buy you a drink for sure. Yes it is from the auction. I think I saw the ivory tailpiece as well. I did not take it because I only wanted the wood. What do you think the wood glued to the ivory is? I would like to sample maple wood from several different ages. But it has been difficult to find maple 200+ years old. 

[romberg flat]

Taiwan is not exactly on my way, but you never know. 

 

 If OP is the same as that from reputable Bongartz Auction House, and apparently it is, then it once belonged to valuable collection of German industrial magnat H.E. Hoersch.

Pity you didn’t take it, certainly it isn’t usual rubbish, although ivory work looks a bit crude.

[Rue]

This is part of the conundrum...

If a neck, fingerboard and tailpiece are off a Strad (or other Big Name) instrument they are of historical interest.

Yet they are for sale.

So the seller may sell as they please...and the buyer purchase what they please...and then do with the purchase as they please.

But...now there will be even more confusion...and hopefully if nothing gets destroyed in the interim. ..I predict that soon there will be another academic debate about the origin of each of these pieces...and upset that they weren't kept together and the entire thing better documented.

So when is an antique worth putting more effort into?

[romberg flat]

Here is my 50 cents guess…

The ivory fingerboard and tailpiece were made by one among members of violin maker family De Luccia from Casigliano Sessa Cilento in province Sorento near Naples.

Count Brancaccio of Naples possessed original Stradivarius violin until 1896 and during this period genuine fingerboard and tailpiece (probably together with the neck) were replaced with those made by De Luccia. Sounds logical, isn’t it?

If this is correct, the question is how those pieces survived after destroying the violin during WWII?  But if that, by some miracle indeed happened, than it stay correct statement that OP is a part of Stradivarius Brancaccio violin - but not originally made by him.  

Does anybody know whether and where is possible to see photo of Brancaccio Strad? 

[Bruce Tai]

 

Here is my 50 cents guess…

 

 

The ivory fingerboard and tailpiece were made by one among members of violin maker family De Luccia from Casigliano Sessa Cilento in province Sorento near Naples.

 

Count Brancaccio of Naples possessed original Stradivarius violin until 1896 and during this period genuine fingerboard and tailpiece (probably together with the neck) were replaced with those made by De Luccia. Sounds logical, isn’t it?

 

If this is correct, the question is how those pieces survived after destroying the violin during WWII?  But if that, by some miracle indeed happened, than it stay correct statement that OP is a part of Stradivarius Brancaccio violin - but not originally made by him.  

 

 

Does anybody know whether and where is possible to see photo of Brancaccio Strad? 

 

 

 

In the book by Hills, written around 1900, only 7 Strads have their original neck, and the Brnacaccio is not one of them. The replacement of original necks started around mid 19th century, according to Pollens. So the original neck of Brancaccio Strad would have been long removed before the violin's destruction in WWII. I do not own this neck, but am allowed to carry out some research with its wood.    

[Ron1]

Bruce-  In your original post you say you had been "generously given" the neck, and in your later post, it seems you're saying you acquired it at auction, and did not choose to acquire the other pieces offered at the auction.  Do I mis-read or mis-interpret?

[Bruce Tai]

Bruce-  In your original post you say you had been "generously given" the neck, and in your later post, it seems you're saying you acquired it at auction, and did not choose to acquire the other pieces offered at the auction.  Do I mis-read or mis-interpret?

 

I have been generously allowed to take it to my lab for research on its wood. And I left the ivory tailpiece with the owner because it has no wood. The research will be published as academic papers, so nothing is conducted under secrecy. I just post it here to get second opinions about its authenticity in terms of carrying the original neck with Stradivari's maple. Obviously I quickly learned a lot more with the help of many more eyes. 

[Rue]

Okay. That makes more sense.

[Violadamore]

I would like to sample maple wood from several different ages. But it has been difficult to find maple 200+ years old. 

Have you tried flintlock era rifle stocks?  18th.Century guns/rifles aren't uncommon or all that exorbitant on the antique/collectibles market. 

[MeyerFittings]

Some of the other items in this sale are from the Karl Schreinzer collection of pegs, tailpieces, bass bars and bridges collected by him in Vienna and originallywilled to the historical museum there. Some of this collection was auctioned off and evidently bought by Hoersch. The remainder is in the Germanishes Museum in Nuremberg. I have somewhere on my computer (once I get it back from the repair shop) photos from the Galpin Soc. journal from  the 1950's, when the collection hadn't been picked over, showing the same photos of bridges listed in the 2008 sale. Since there is no way of knowing how much of his collection is shown, It is reasonable to posit that Schreinzer also had these pieces in his collection, but I don't know. My gut tells me that the neck is original, as attributed in pencil and the ivory parts came later. Thr decoration certainly doesn't match anything from the Cremona shop nor would the Luccia designation make sencs..  Rue is right in the fact that these items were not treated with much historical respect and were thrown away like used tires-- unfortunately for the rest of us. I'm sure the neck pictured and the instrument destroyed in the War parted company many years ago and were snatched from the garbage by someone like Schreinzer, or the man himself.

 

I've seen what is left in Nuremberg, I'm sure Jacob has more knowlege of what happenned to the items after they left Vienna. I'm also sure that the Kunsthistorisches Museum would have the answers to where these items originated. I wish that I was addept at comparing old hanwriting to match the lettering on the peges with that of Karl S.

[romberg flat]

In the book by Hills, written around 1900, only 7 Strads have their original neck, and the Brnacaccio is not one of them. The replacement of original necks started around mid 19th century, according to Pollens. So the original neck of Brancaccio Strad would have been long removed before the violin's destruction in WWII. I do not own this neck, but am allowed to carry out some research with its wood.    

 

Brancaccio Strad was in possession of Brancaccio family for a long time, perhaps around two centuries. It is known that Gagliano 1790 made some reparations on it. Since 1896 violin went through many hands and changed a lot of owners; Hamma & Co, W.E. Hill & Sons, Caressa, Rehfuss, Oscar Vornbaum, Carl Flesh (1907 – 1928), Franz Mendelsson, Hamma again (?), all until vanishing 1944, in air bombing of Berlin…

If there is some truth in my guessing that one of Luccias in 19^th century replaced fingerboard, neck and tailpiece, it is quite likely that Hamma, or Hill, or somebody else replace again this pieces with other, in his opinion more appropriate for a genuine Strad. Probably, the original scroll was all time on the instrument. If the neck was genuine it is to presume that expert of Hamma’s or Hill’s caliber would keep it and not replace.  As that was not a case it is most likely that neck isn’t genuine.

If something like this happened, it is possible that ivory pieces together with the neck were sold as collectable antiquity with interesting story and provenance. This might explain how this pieces survived destruction of the violin.   

 

Fantasy of an amateur? It will be nice to know opinion of some among real experts from this forum.      

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

The shape of the neck (the sideview) is not that of the neck templates that are left from Stradivari. At least it doesn't look that way to me. It could still be an original Strad neck, only reshaped.

[MeyerFittings]

Just a thought. If a quality shop would not throw out the original neck becuase of the fact that it was made by Strad and therefore historically precious or collectively valuable, where is the original neck from the Messiah? Didn't Vuillaume do the conversion?

 

What is the possible reason that there is what's left of a dovetail tenon in te heel?

[MeyerFittings]

Look at the tag on the Schreinzer collection of bridges from the black and white photo from the Galpin Society journal used in the sale of 2008. Its one of those old paper things with the red washer to prevent tearing. It's the same type of tag on the ivory tailpiece. Shreinzer collected pegs and tailpieces from instruments that being restored and converted to the modern style set up. Looks to me like these items were saved by him and part of his colection. The writing on the neck and tags may well be his.

[Stephen Faulk]

Just a thought. If a quality shop would not throw out the original neck becuase of the fact that it was made by Strad and therefore historically precious or collectively valuable, where is the original neck from the Messiah? Didn't Vuillaume do the conversion?

 

What is the possible reason that there is what's left of a dovetail tenon in te heel?

 I was looking at that too. The neck was once reset with a dovetail before it was removed for good. Interesting it was dovetailed the neck and not the top block....so was it a piece grafted into the top block and then shaped as a male part dovetail and the neck is the female part? Usually it's the other way around. 

[Ben Hebbert]

There's not much to go on, but I particularly liked the little remnants of varnish on the upper face of what's left of the pegbox. It may very well be worth having a look under a super-strong UV light, and seeing if you can see any evidence of the tarnish-layer beneath the varnish outlined by Brandmair & Greiner. Frankly, having a neck is one thing, but even owning a tiny drop of legitimate Stradivari varnish is quite another... worthwhile seeing to what extent there is real varnish on it (as opposed to retouch. I find everything rather plausible about this, but a neck is pure ephemera whilst if it offers a first-hand glance at varnish, you have something very valuable. I'm quite prepared to give this the benefit of the doubt. 

 

I don't get excited at all about the fingerboard and (missing) tailpiece. They are what they are, but nothing to do with Stradivari. The Luccia Fecit seems a bit nonsensical - but most of all, I think there is an inconsistency between the restoration work done to the neck to sustain it's use - which actually seems rather fine, and the scrimshaw work on the fingerboard. I'd put my money on the fingerboard and tailpiece having absolutely nothing to do with the neck. 

 

If Pollens is right and there are only 7 original necks, I think I'll eat my hat! 

 

Messiah, Cipriani Potter, Baron Knoop, Alard, Harrison, Lady Blunt, Arditti, Medici (viola)  and that's without getting the books out! (That's 7 + Messiah, we all know why ) 

[Stephen Faulk]

Ben, you're saying this is the hot spot right here? 

[Bruce Tai]

The shape of the neck (the sideview) is not that of the neck templates that are left from Stradivari. At least it doesn't look that way to me. It could still be an original Strad neck, only reshaped.

 

Stewart Pollens' article, which later became a section of his book, nicely answers your question. 

According to him, first, there are no surviving violin neck patterns from Stradivari.

There are only 7 surviving necks mounted on instruments when Hills made a survey around 1900.

The neck of the "Soil" is now removed and preserved in Cremona's museum, and we don't know if there are others like that. 

The Medici viola has a complete service record going back to 1700, and yet there is no mention of its heel extension by inserting wood wedges. Pollens can only assume this was done very early on, perhaps before 1700. 

 

I assume the extension is similar to the work on Harrison Strad (picture of its neck hill)

If you look closely at my pictures, there is also neck heel extension, so this could have been done very early on, perhaps when the nail hols were filled. Could the nail last 50 years without rusting? 

 

The neck part is made thicker by a flat panel of wood (3 mm) glued to its top, which can be seen in some pictures I took. Why the fingered board piece is only partially painted black is also mysterious to me. 

 

So you are right, the contour of this neck has been altered quite a bit. 

[Bruce Tai]

Just a thought. If a quality shop would not throw out the original neck becuase of the fact that it was made by Strad and therefore historically precious or collectively valuable, where is the original neck from the Messiah? Didn't Vuillaume do the conversion?

 

What is the possible reason that there is what's left of a dovetail tenon in te heel?

 

The original neck of the Messiah was modified at the heel and still mounted on the instrument. 

The dovetail tenon on the neck I have is also a part of the hill extension, with four pieces of wood glued to the heel  

[duane88]

I seem to recall seeing the orig. neck of the Gen. Kyd violin on Mr. Fulton's desk. He referred to it, as I remember, as something like the 'world's most valuble paperweight'.

[Bruce Tai]

Is the wood under the ivory finger board maple? 

 

How can I tell? 

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Stewart Pollens' article, which later became a section of his book, nicely answers your question. 

According to him, first, there are no surviving violin neck patterns from Stradivari.

There are only 7 surviving necks mounted on instruments when Hills made a survey around 1900.

The neck of the "Soil" is now removed and preserved in Cremona's museum, and we don't know if there are others like that. 

The Medici viola has a complete service record going back to 1700, and yet there is no mention of its heel extension by inserting wood wedges. Pollens can only assume this was done very early on, perhaps before 1700. 

 

I assume the extension is similar to the work on Harrison Strad (picture of its neck hill)

If you look closely at my pictures, there is also neck heel extension, so this could have been done very early on, perhaps when the nail hols were filled. Could the nail last 50 years without rusting? 

 

The neck part is made thicker by a flat panel of wood (3 mm) glued to its top, which can be seen in some pictures I took. Why the fingered board piece is only partially painted black is also mysterious to me. 

 

So you are right, the contour of this neck has been altered quite a bit. 

The Medici viola was made in 1690. Seems highly unlikely to me that it was altered before 1700.

 

I would also assume that more Stradivari necks should have been preserved by restorers.

 

"Could the nail last 50 years without rusting?"

Yes, I think it could, given the right treatment. But maybe the rusting was a part of the plan to make it hold stronger, as Bruce Carlson have suggested. I wonder what the black stuff in the Harrison is? Rust is red, not black? This was recently discussed in another thread.

 

 

Is the wood under the ivory finger board maple? 

 

How can I tell? 

I would think so. It looks quite similar to the neck itself.

Edit: Oh, sorry, I thought that you meant the glued piece on the neck. But you mean the wedge fingerboard? I think the wedge were usually made from a lighter wood.