Any Reputable Ebay Violin Sellers???

[Violadamore]

And I don't have any misconceptions : I have 45 years of experience observing incompetents trying to make a living "at violins", often in horribly unfair competition with decent people who have a shop, supply a decent and responsible service and eventually train and employ others. The recycling of junk hurts new making , too.  But one doesn't know what one doesn't know.

 

My only concern here is to give the OP the best advice I can. I wasn't aware there is a Trade Union for the "recyclers".     

What makes you a valid judge of anyone's competence?  What's unfair about it?  Are you calling anyone here indecent??

[Carl Stross]

1. What makes you a valid judge of anyone's competence?  

 

2. What's unfair about it?  

 

3. Are you calling anyone here indecent??

 

1. Long term, vast and direct experience.

 

2. Easy : the decent thing to do is to allow living space for the young and dedicated. If one spent a lifetime as a ... car mechanic   the decent thing to do would be to allow somebody else to spend a lifetime as a bona fide violin maker. Not to erode a rather finicky market just to make an extra buck. 

Violin business is packed chock a block with wannabes, incompetents and downright crooks. You should know that - half of your posts are directed towards those ones. It's not for nothing that certain countries require proof of one's competency before one is allowed to engage in a trade. People do not pay for violins with money they pick up off the street - they work for those money and sometimes , too often probably, they borrow them. 

 

3. You are trying to make this about "people here". I am not aware of anybody here who's a bottom feed scavenger in the violin trade, deceiving people under the false pretense of some non-existent competency, "expertise" and/or training. ARE YOU ?

 

Jeeez... I don't quite understand what is it ( or who ) you are defending. Must've hit a soft spot somewhere.   Anyway, it's a losing battle.

 

By the way, the entire MN being on my computer, I saw quite a few posts where you were making mince meat out of established shops / makers. In a non specific way. Once in THIS thread. 

[Carl Stross]

 

IMHO, the most important part of a Pahdah offering is this:

 

This is a real auction. 

 

There is no reserve and no minimum beyond the opening bid.  

 

The high bidder will win the violin regardless of price.

 

 

 

 Please check my feedback. Look at the hundreds of old violins that have found happy owners.  My violins are as I describe them and well worth whatever you pay.

 

 

 

If you win this violin and don't like it, you can return it for a full refund or you are welcome to try another.  No hassles and no arguments.  The only things I ask, are to let me know if you are going to keep it or return it within 14 days. If you choose to return it, I will promptly refund your money in full (less shipping) upon its safe return. If you need more than 14 days, just ask. No refunds more than 30 days from the auction's end.

 

 

 

Please contact me directly if there are any questions, concerns, problems or issues. Contact me first if you plan to return the violin and I will take care of everything in a prompt and professional manner. 

 

I am dedicated to excellent customer service.

 

 

 

 

I pack in new, custom-made shipping cartons.  I use all new materials designed to provide superior protection for old violins. I ship very fast, usually within 24 hours of payment-or less.  You can expect your package to arrive safely within a couple of days of your payment.

 

 

Anything there that anyone has a problem with?

 

 

Yes, I do. It creates a false sense of security in the mind of the prospective buyer. Buyers and in particular buyers of cheap "antiques" ( sic !) tend to be

rather less knowledgeable if not downright incompetent. The probability they'll figure out a lemon in two weeks is not 100%. Not even close. The distinguished author of that prose relies on the fact that statistically things will work out in the black. Some will be happy, some will be too negligent to return, some will return etc .

 

Where I have the real problem with this seller is with the stupendous descriptions he attaches to his wares. That's where the crack starts forming. To use wording of that sort is INDECENT. One might even say fraudulent. Not me, however.

 

Remember how you felt when the banks to advantage of you. And they were way slicker than this particular eBay seller.  Were you not all crying that you should've been protected against your own propensity towards spending borrowed money, speculating in crap and getting rich overnight ?

[victordriver]

Tara,

I hope you got something out of your first post on Maestronet.......

[tara81662l]

Yes Victor,

 

I continue to get things out of the posts!  I love the comments as they contain opportunities to learn, grow, consider the possibilities and to help me form my strategy. It is a bit like a smorgasbord...feed on what you like, be open to things that are out of your comfort zone and hopefully end up full and happy!

 

What I have settled on for sure is making sure I get fiddles I may try out, take to her teacher and a local luthier and send back for a refund if they don't fit our needs. That takes is out of my totally rookie hands and surrounds the process with different skill sets, expertise and a mechanism not to get ripped off with a VSO!  It also helps us make sure we have a sound and comfortable fiddle for my daughter and we can test out the subjective component of tone/sound, etc. 

 

I can' tell you all how much I APPRECIATE your willingness to share, challenge and help me widen the net so I get a good catch in the end!  Hmmm, I must be hungry as I just realized I have several food analogies in my post!  Time for an early lunch!

 

Tara

[Blank face]

 

An expert, compares with the latest Strad he's worked on.

 

Taking into consideration, that the word "Strad" is a chiffre, which you can fill with names like Thir, Kloz, Salomon, Hellmer or Ficker (or some more recent makers), I think I can almost agree with Carl. I can't see, why anybody around here should feel offended, we all know about his Strad-obsession.

 

Once more, violins aren't a matter of life or death; they are much more serious.

[Carl Stross]

Taking into consideration, that the word "Strad" is a chiffre, which you can fill with names like Thir, Kloz, Salomon, Hellmer or Ficker (or some more recent makers), I think I can almost agree with Carl. I can't see, why anybody around here should feel offended, we all know about his Strad-obsession.

 

Once more, violins aren't a matter of life or death; they are much more serious.

 

I might've exaggerated to drive the point but in the end if a maker is not exposed to a range of violin "possibilities" , his understanding will gravitate towards the lowest denominator.  

[jacobsaunders]

Remember how you felt when the banks to advantage of you. And they were way slicker than this particular eBay seller.  Were you not all crying that you should've been protected against your own propensity towards spending borrowed money, speculating in crap and getting rich overnight ?

Remember, self-flagellation is popular in Florida, Carl

[Carl Stross]

Remember, self-flagellation is popular in Florida, Carl

 

I know. It's the propensity to blame others for it which throws me...  

[franciscus]

Jeeez... I don't quite understand what is it ( or who ) you are defending.

Someway, I feel than VdA defended my minority inter alia. But, I feel also that I could add a few things to this pleasant conversation: it could be very appropriate if every talented child automatically could have unlimited budget for logistic support of its talent(s). Remember that the talented children are usually multi-talented, so one should take it into account. It could be appropriate too if every violinist could have the competent luthier on hand. But, these things are not going this way every day. Think about this situation: there is a fictional place where (very reputable) musical school exists for, say almost 100 years, with, I'm making this up, a dozen of fictional children studying the violin, but where is no any luthier able (or willing - there is no difference)  to make any repair, so if one has to repair (or just set it up) his instrument, one has to bring it across the border. These repairs are mostly rather simple and the instruments are mostly student instruments in need for new bridge or nut, raising of  fallen post or (rarely) gluing a half of inch of open seam. So, if there is some fictional guy, say, around 50 years old, who plays the violin around 45 years and around 35 years maintains his instruments, because he has never had anyone else to do that on hand or - all the same - has not enough money to travel and pay the competent luthier, but had an old-school self-sufficient teachers willing to share their knowledge with him; what's wrong with the idea that this fictional one could enable mentioned fictional children to do what the students have to do, maintaining their instruments in working order.

 

Besides that fictional situation, do you really think that, say, W. Lewis & Son's or Glaesel's violins are not able to serve as a tool for young violinists up to the some (not very low) level? Do you really think that the acceptable setup of these workhorses requires some secret knowledge? Obviously, there is a whole world of which you know nothing or do not want to know or pretend that do not know.

[crazy jane]

Thank you for that, franciscus.

[Carl Stross]

Someway, I feel than VdA defended my minority inter alia. 

 

Besides that fictional situation, do you really think that, say, W. Lewis & Son's or Glaesel's violins are not able to serve as a tool for young violinists up to the some (not very low) level? Do you really think that the acceptable setup of these workhorses requires some secret knowledge? Obviously, there is a whole world of which you know nothing or do not want to know or pretend that do not know.

 

I must say that as far as I remember I always found your posts instructive, to the point and wonderfully intelligent. Up to this one.

 

The "fictional situation" you describe is well known to me. And so is the fact that a Lewis or Gaesel violin could serve us well. ( A friend qualified for Tchaikovsky on a factory violin ). Where is the "obviously" coming from then ? 

 

I was not talking here about an even remotely similar situation. Tara wants to spend $2500 and she's got plenty options. Then, in my opinion she should chose the best options. The best option is a reputable "brick and mortar shop" where the maker is fully qualified and thoroughly experienced. He's got a better than average interest to have her as a client again - the probability to be saddled with a plank is far less. As I said, why spend $500 on eBay or with the retiree wannabe who's tinkering with violins and risk to drop another $2k to have it curred of manifold ills ( hard to detected ) , ending with a violin still worth $500 ? Makes no sense to me.

 

Is it possible that somewhere, somehow, there is a retiree self taught "maker" who does a good job and through careful observation and lengthy learning and some natural ability , does a good job ? Of course there is. But myself won't bet on that and would not advise others to either.

 

<<Do you really think that the acceptable setup of these workhorses requires some secret knowledge?>>

 

Secret knowledge ? Yes and no. I don't quite understand what "acceptable setup" is. To my mind it's either right or wrong. An expert with professional pride will do it right -  no corners cut. Might not use the same bridge quality like on a Strad but will cut it and fit the soundpost to the same standard.

When it comes to adjustment, somebody who does 4/day for twenty years spanning from Strad to Lark has a different understanding of what and how should be done. There are quite a few extremely fine points in bridge / soundpost fitting and adjustment, you NEVER saw on MN and never will. They make a BIG difference. How do you think quite a few of our members make a living ? By doing work of incomparably superior standard as result of proper training in reputable workshops, years and years of experience, intelligence, talent and integrity. The idea that one such myself might retire "into violins" and do work on a par with say, Jerry Pasewicz, is utterly ridiculous.

 

There is something else to consider : fixing a cheap violin may often be more difficult than fixing an expensive "named" one. That's because the expensive on passed through careful and competent hands over many years. There may be A LOT more to do to get a cheap one right.

[Carl Stross]

So, if there is some fictional guy, say, around 50 years old, who plays the violin around 45 years and around 35 years maintains his instruments, because he has never had anyone else to do that on hand or - all the same - has not enough money to travel and pay the competent luthier, but had an old-school self-sufficient teachers willing to share their knowledge with him; what's wrong with the idea that this fictional one could enable mentioned fictional children to do what the students have to do, maintaining their instruments in working order.

 

 

 

Nothing. Nothing is wrong. But, having $2500 to spend on a new violin, I'd look in other directions for a purchase. I would buy from a brick and mortar reputable shop in business for a sizable chunk of time and with some competition around.

[Rue]

I think there can be more than one way to do something "right". Circumstances dictate what that will be.

I also want to point out that doing something "right" may still not work out either. Case in point:

While I am very fussy about my hair - I also I have a no fuss hair hairstyle . I can get a $10 trim anywhere. Almost always looks just fine.

For a year now I have been wanting to change it up. I finally worked up the courage to make a big change...and booked an appointment at a high end salon.

I came with pictures. I explained what I wanted and why.

I paid $125.

And?

It looks like I have a home-done blue streak in my hair.

[franciscus]

Dear Carl,

 

I have to say that I agree with almost everything you wrote, except a few of last lines. It is (technically) a little bit hard to answer, due to the need for quoting of various points, but I will do my best to do that:

I must say that as far as I remember I always found your posts instructive, to the point and wonderfully intelligent.

Thank you so much.

Tara wants to spend $2500 and she's got plenty options.

I answered to your post, not the Tara's one. In your post I cited, there was no reference to the OP - you have gone to the off-topic (dark) side, I just followed you.

I don't quite understand what "acceptable setup" is. To my mind it's either right or wrong. An expert with professional pride will do it right -  no corners cut.

To my mind, it is the setup that ensure the proper playability - not more, but, not less also. Regarding the "no corners cut" - why the shops usually have various prices for "student" and "professional" bridges?

There are quite a few extremely fine points in bridge / soundpost fitting and adjustment, you NEVER saw on MN and never will.

Absolutely agree. These fine points one never saw on MN, but the MN is not the only one source of knowledge, as far as I know. Believe or not, I cut a few bridges and soundposts even before Internet era and even made some glue and varnish and pegs and even bridges from scratch, but it is the other fairy tale.

The idea that one such myself might retire "into violins" and do work on a par with say, Jerry Pasewicz, is utterly ridiculous

Completely agree.Who promotes such an idea? But, the fact that I cannot climb Everest cannot stop me from climbing the hills in the neighborhood.

There is something else to consider : fixing a cheap violin may often be more difficult than fixing an expensive "named" one.

Yes, it is usually true. But, take into account that one, usually, do the job more freely if one has no possibility to make substantial damage. Freedom in the job sometimes could results in rather fine results.

[Carl Stross]

Dear Carl,

 

I have to say that I agree with almost everything you wrote, except a few of last lines. It is (technically) a little bit hard to answer, due to the need for quoting of various points, but I will do my best to do that:

I must say that as far as I remember I always found your posts instructive, to the point and wonderfully intelligent.

Thank you so much.

Tara wants to spend $2500 and she's got plenty options.

I answered to your post, not the Tara's one. In your post I cited, there was no reference to the OP - you have gone to the off-topic (dark) side, I just followed you.

I don't quite understand what "acceptable setup" is. To my mind it's either right or wrong. An expert with professional pride will do it right -  no corners cut.

To my mind, it is the setup that ensure the proper playability - not more, but, not less also. Regarding the "no corners cut" - why the shops usually have various prices for "student" and "professional" bridges?

There are quite a few extremely fine points in bridge / soundpost fitting and adjustment, you NEVER saw on MN and never will.

Absolutely agree. These fine points one never saw on MN, but the MN is not the only one source of knowledge, as far as I know. Believe or not, I cut a few bridges and soundposts even before Internet era and even made some glue and varnish and pegs and even bridges from scratch, but it is the other fairy tale.

The idea that one such myself might retire "into violins" and do work on a par with say, Jerry Pasewicz, is utterly ridiculous

Completely agree.Who promotes such an idea? But, the fact that I cannot climb Everest cannot stop me from climbing the hills in the neighborhood.

There is something else to consider : fixing a cheap violin may often be more difficult than fixing an expensive "named" one.

Yes, it is usually true. But, take into account that one, usually, do the job more freely if one has no possibility to make substantial damage. Freedom in the job sometimes could results in rather fine results.

 

I certainly didn't think I was off topic - I kept replying within the context of the questions put to me. Anyway, we're on the same wave length. Years ago , I had large quantity of junk violins. Most of them were non repairable because they were repaired before. By somebody full of good intentions. I gave the vast majority away to whomever wanted them. Still have about 150.  

 

You keep well and please, post more !

[Rue]

150?

Carl's stash!

I feel much better about mine now...lol.

[Carl Stross]

150?

Carl's stash!

I feel much better about mine now...lol.

 

On recalculation there may be quite a bit more than that.  They're stashed in a basement and not the driest of them. I wonder what's left.

[uncle duke]

Dig the 3/4 sizes out, there may be a market.

[Violadamore]

As I said, why spend $500......with the retiree wannabe who's tinkering with violins and risk to drop another $2k to have it curred of manifold ills ( hard to detected ) , ending with a violin still worth $500 ? Makes no sense to me.

 

Is it possible that somewhere, somehow, there is a retiree self taught "maker" who does a good job and through careful observation and lengthy learning and some natural ability , does a good job ? Of course there is. But myself won't bet on that and would not advise others to either.

 

 

There is something else to consider : fixing a cheap violin may often be more difficult than fixing an expensive "named" one. That's because the expensive on passed through careful and competent hands over many years. There may be A LOT more to do to get a cheap one right.

1.  Because my customers (all local) know where to find me and know that I do good work and stand behind it.  I strenuously object to the loaded words "wannabe" and "tinkering".

 

2. You could lose that "negative bet" in a hurry.  You know darned well that there are a number of retiree makers of no little skill posting on MN.

 

3.  "Cheap repairs for the cheap 'uns" are incredibly challenging, but the lack of serious pressure makes them fun.

 

Carl, what I find objectionable is that the wording and tone of your posts on this matter not only seem to be dismissing 2nd. career doing-what-they-love older folks as a bunch of clueless senile goofballs vandalizing fiddles but also appear to be attempting to group the lot of us with people like those horrid "violin repair" purveyors notably represented on YouTube sanding old violins down to the quick, repairing cracks with paper patches and white glue, then spray varnishing their victims and noting how pretty they look (most of those advertisers also seem to own brick-and-mortar music shops).  

[Blank face]

Someway, I feel than VdA defended my minority inter alia. But, I feel also that I could add a few things to this pleasant conversation: it could be very appropriate if every talented child automatically could have unlimited budget for logistic support of its talent(s). Remember that the talented children are usually multi-talented, so one should take it into account. It could be appropriate too if every violinist could have the competent luthier on hand. But, these things are not going this way every day. Think about this situation: there is a fictional place where (very reputable) musical school exists for, say almost 100 years, with, I'm making this up, a dozen of fictional children studying the violin, but where is no any luthier able (or willing - there is no difference)  to make any repair, so if one has to repair (or just set it up) his instrument, one has to bring it across the border. These repairs are mostly rather simple and the instruments are mostly student instruments in need for new bridge or nut, raising of  fallen post or (rarely) gluing a half of inch of open seam. So, if there is some fictional guy, say, around 50 years old, who plays the violin around 45 years and around 35 years maintains his instruments, because he has never had anyone else to do that on hand or - all the same - has not enough money to travel and pay the competent luthier, but had an old-school self-sufficient teachers willing to share their knowledge with him; what's wrong with the idea that this fictional one could enable mentioned fictional children to do what the students have to do, maintaining their instruments in working order.

 

Besides that fictional situation, do you really think that, say, W. Lewis & Son's or Glaesel's violins are not able to serve as a tool for young violinists up to the some (not very low) level? Do you really think that the acceptable setup of these workhorses requires some secret knowledge? Obviously, there is a whole world of which you know nothing or do not want to know or pretend that do not know.

 

I'm quoting you once more, because I feel that you touched very important points.

 

Of course there's another world of violins beyond what we're usually talking about, the world of students and parents unable to afford by far anything of what we are calling a "decent" instrument or bow, not to mention musicians in so called "less developed" countries. Maybe this world is as big, or even bigger, than the other, and possibly more important for cultur and education - the "grass roots" of music.

And I think, we all can agree, that it's an important thing, that there are people doing service, making repairs or "recycling of rubbish" at a good level, even if they aren't trained luthiers and will never reach the level Carl is thinking of. They don't need it, as far as the result is a working and affordable instrument -  but not a useless wrackage.

 

In opposite, what we're talking about, and this never should be mixed up, are people making business pretending (or sometimes really believing) they can do work and have knowledge they never could nor had. This is also offending the skilled and engaged "improvisers" you're talking about, who are usually not pretending this way.

 

Also we should add to "retirees" the words "bored and unknowing", so that's clear that it's not discriminating against any professional learning and working people beyond other professions. Just to be a member and follower of this board should exclude the first, shouldn't it?

[Carl Stross]

1.  Because my customers (all local) know where to find me and know that I do good work and stand behind it.  I strenuously object to the loaded words "wannabe" and "tinkering".

 

2. You could lose that "negative bet" in a hurry.  You know darned well that there are a number of retiree makers of no little skill posting on MN.

 

3.  "Cheap repairs for the cheap 'uns" are incredibly challenging, but the lack of serious pressure makes them fun.

 

4. Carl, what I find objectionable is that the wording and tone of your posts on this matter not only seem to be dismissing 2nd. career doing-what-they-love older folks as a bunch of clueless senile goofballs vandalizing fiddles but

 

5. also appear to be attempting to group the lot of us with people like those horrid "violin repair" purveyors notably represented on YouTube sanding old violins down to the quick, repairing cracks with paper patches and white glue, then spray varnishing their victims and noting how pretty they look (most of those advertisers also seem to own brick-and-mortar music shops).  

 

1. You may object as much as you please - beats me why do you think my advice applies to you and why are you making such a fuss about it. Read my posts and you'll see that my comment is directed to a specific category. You may be the best retiree- 2nd career in violin repairing since the dawn of time - I don't care and I won't presume anything. However , if I look at your posts, they are NEVER about anything specific regarding violin making. About 80% of them are humorous ( sic ! ) circumstance comments. From that I can not draw the conclusion that you are a bona fide maker / repairer or that you know anything besides the meaning of common terms and are "interested in violins". I also can't draw the opposite conclusion. It's in the air.

 

2. No, I can't lose that bet. I won't make it in the first place, didn't and advise strongly against.

 

3. Sure, I can understand that. But this is not about fun. I care about my money, not your fun.

 

4. Pahdah wording on eBay didn't make you cringe but mine does ??????  It's simple : there is a category you are alluding in 5) and you won't disagree that's to be avoided. It's LARGE in my view. There's also another category made out of the "good ones". They must be there, I am sure but I don't know ANY personally . Accordingly, I would not advise somebody to use their services when loss of money or violin playing enthusiasm is at stake. Take the safest road. You may remember that something very similar was discussed a while ago re. David Burgess being asked to recommend a luthier to repair a violin . And some people on MN were scandalized he didn't consider a ..... guitar maker. Rings a bell ?

 

5. That's entirely your imagination. I didn't do such thing. I did something else and I'll reiterate it : I do not like people who had a long, successful and often well payed career hogging business space which should left to the young with real , acute needs. I think it's unfair and I can explain why. You think it's "free for all". It's NOT. In a real "free for all" situation, you'd hide. If I was a trumpet player for 40 years and on retiring I start "fixin' " from home in competition with a young bloke who has to feed and shelter his family, I'm being INDECENT. I use contacts I made during my employment as a trumpet player. ( does this conflict ring a bell ? ). No way the young chap can beat me and what for him is a matter of survival, for me is "improved comfort" and "keeping one busy". Closer to home, the most cursory of investigations will show you how big a problem this is in ...electrical engineering. 

There is a time when we need to create space for new blood and there is a time when we should plain die and stop wasting resources for no good reason. Humanity is not about individuals and that's that. 

 

Oh - and count your blessings you didn't become a lawyer..  

[Violadamore]

1.From that I can not draw the conclusion that you are a bona fide maker / repairer or that you know anything besides the meaning of common terms and are "interested in violins". I also can't draw the opposite conclusion. It's in the air.

 

2. Humanity is not about individuals and that's that. 

 

3. Oh - and count your blessings you didn't become a lawyer..  

1. Greater disclosure than I give would blow my cover.  Believe what you like.

 

2. Well Sieg flipping heil!    Sorry if I don't adhere to a collectivist ideology. 

 

3. I certainly do.  One's character is likely sufficiently corrupt without continually viewing the world through an adversarial paradigm and passing all questions of moral responsibility on to my clients. 

[Carl Stross]

1. Greater disclosure than I give would blow my cover.  Believe what you like.

 

2. Well Sieg flipping heil!    Sorry if I don't adhere to a collectivist ideology. 

 

3. I certainly do.  One's character is likely sufficiently corrupt without continually viewing the world through an adversarial paradigm and passing all questions of moral responsibility to my clients. 

 

Ok... Let's see :

 

1. I don't believe anything. Rest assured, you're not even registering on my interest scale. You are not a professional in this or a related field. You are an amateur. Amateurs do not interest me and I do not interest them. 

 

2.  The overgrown ego was always obvious. The Ayn Rand twist not.

 

3. Glad you got that right.

 

I suggest you move on. I think we both explained our stances thoroughly. I concede defeat and blame it on my congenital retardation. I'm not in the slightest downhearted though - few people would have a chance when facing your towering intellect, your wit and your ... ( I'm running out - you fill in )

Now I'll get back to Kempff and you get back to resuerrections.

[pahdah_hound]

There is a time when we need to create space for new blood and there is a time when we should plain die and stop wasting resources for no good reason.

 

Does that mean that the excellent, well-trained, intelligent and conscientious professional luthier with 50 years of experience, who I use to repair and set up nearly all of the violins I sell on ebay,  "should plain die and stop wasting resources?" He might take personal offense to that suggestion, as would many mature (read old) people who choose to continue to work for a wide variety of reasons. If someone chooses a new career late in life, does that make them indecent?

 

Competition raises quality and lowers price.  Competition motivates young people to work hard to achieve a level of superior competency at whatever they do, in order to compete successfully. If the masters with the knowledge and skills gained by years of training and experience were to simply withdraw from the marketplace to create space for new blood, the quality would go down and the price would go up.  In a vacuum of competition, the mediocre thrive.