violin bridge under arch.

[kyproset]

Hello fellow MNetters.

 

As I value your educated, professional opinions greatly and I always run to you for any questions I have, I respectfully submit to you the following.

 

I changed from synthetic strings to covered gut. Namely from Evah Pirazzis and Vision titanium solos to Passione solo with a medium Oliv goldstahl E, as the Passione E  I found to be too soft.
The difference in quality was tremendous. Never had I experienced such qualities on my violin before with any synthetic strings and I intend to keep using them for a very, very long time to come.

 

The only problem was the G string, that didn't seem to have the same compatible sound with the rest of the set regarding timbre and power.

 

I took the violin to my Luthier with the idea of enlarging the G string kidney, but he said that this would make the G string darker sounding, something I didn't want.

 

What he did however was to shave a little sliver of wood from the under arch in between the feet of the bridge making it somewhat deeper,(kind of like the difference between the French and the Belgian cello bridges at the feet).

This seemed to cure all the G string problems, it also changed all the other strings for the better. Improved quality, response, power, a silvery quality to the sound all along the register and above all, it fixed the slight wolf I had on the high B on the G string above concert A.

 

This violin we discovered long ago, responds well to a thin bridge and a thick sound-post (6.5mm).

 

Why is it that shaving just a little sliver of wood at the under arch makes such a noted overall improvement in the sound and what are the mechanics behind it?.

 

A friend of mine tried the violin after this little mod and he will have the same thing done on his J.B Vuillaume violin. Such was the positive change of this little operation. 

 

PS, I had the same thing done on my old Viennese violin with the same positive results.

 

Thank you.   

[DGV]

There are a number of posts on MN on bridge tuning.

[Roger Frankland]

Read this article and see what you think. I would like to hear your reaction.

http://josephcurtinstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/BridgeTuning.pdf

[JohnCockburn]

Read this article and see what you think. I would like to hear your reaction.

http://josephcurtinstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/BridgeTuning.pdf

Nice article. Curtin always writes so well.

I'd be surprised if shaving a small sliver of wood from the bridge would produce any significant change in its vibrational spectrum.

But I'd be delighted to see evidence to the contrary.

[kyproset]

Thank you,

indeed a great article, very informative.

 

John,

that's why I posted the question, since I also think that for a small change there was a significant difference.

[Craig Tucker]

Nice article. Curtin always writes so well.

I'd be surprised if shaving a small sliver of wood from the bridge would produce any significant change in its vibrational spectrum.

But I'd be delighted to see evidence to the contrary.

 

Yes, this is my initial reaction to the post, in general, also.

Aesthetics and tradition are what I've always considered a primary focus for bridge trimming...

But there are things in the violin world, that can make me take a close second look - and this may well be one of them.

 

  - the bridge IS one of those things that have a massive task, really. Transmitting the strings vibrations to the corpus? I'm thinking that this would be an easy one to test.

 

 So just as a general question for the various makers out there - how sensitive to such trimming do you find the bridge is with regard to the response of the violin?

[Craig Tucker]

 

John,

that's why I posted the question, since I also think that for a small change there was a significant difference.

 

kyproset,

 

I'm thinking that you may simply have had a streak of good luck - either that, or a very sensitive and a very able, practical luthier...

 

In any case, an extremely interesting post.

Thanks for posting it, you were exact with the wording, making it easy to understand what's going on.

[Michael_Molnar]

Recently more of my attention has been moving to bridge adjustments. It is counter-intuitive for me that such a small part of a violin could have such a major impact on its response.  I think kyproset is on to something important.

[kyproset]

Thank you Craig,

 

Indeed my Luthier is an expert in tonal adjustment. Visiting string players from other countries take their instruments to him to have them tonally adjusted.

He also puts in the time to try different things with each instrument which is a big plus compared to the service I used to get in the U.K back in the mid 80's where I would collect my violin without knowing or seeing the person who worked on it and what was done to it was final. Things have now changed and there is more luthier-customer interaction, which is a big positive when it comes to final adjustments. My luthier is still a bit different as he is willing to change things on a continuous basis until the customer is fully satisfied with the sound.

 

Now about the effectiveness of this change, I assume that the better the violin is, the more effect any little change will have on the sound.

This I tested myself as the same little operation was performed on a Guarneri J.B. Vuillaume and an old Viennese violin that tonally is nowhere near the Vuillaume. Both violins responded well to the change, but the Vuillaume much more so.

 

I think it would be interesting to try this and see is the results correspond to mine.  

[Michael_Molnar]

Now about the effectiveness of this change, I assume that the better the violin is, the more effect any little change will have on the sound.

This I tested myself as the same little operation was performed on a Guarneri J.B. Vuillaume and an old Viennese violin that tonally is nowhere near the Vuillaume. Both violins responded well to the change, but the Vuillaume much more so.

I can believe that adjusting a bridge on a dead violin will get you nowhere. 

[Craig Tucker]

 

I think it would be interesting to try this and see is the results correspond to mine.  

 

Yes.

 

I'm not making much, or even doing much, violin-wise these days, but I do have four or five violins still hanging around.

One in particular I'm thinking about, perhaps doing some quick experiments with it.

 

In any case, I'll get back with any results that I might get.

But the truth is; that I've got so much else going on just now, I'll probably just follow this post. 

[kyproset]

Craig,

 

it doesn't take long to do it.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

More bridge tuning material that may be of interest:

 

https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:gh900xs0490/CAS_gh900xs0490.pdf (articles by Rogers and by Jansson)

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/77492020/A-Note-on-Practical-Bridge-Tuning-for-the-Violin-Maker-Carleen-m-Hutchins#scribd

[Dwight Brown]

The articles on Mr. Curtin's site are wonderful.  The bridge, soundpost, strings and other elements of what we refer to as "set up" are as important to an instrument as practice is to a performer.  I have a feeling that a great set up luthier could make even a pretty horrible instrument better, and an insensitive set up person could make a magnificent instrument pretty awful.  When I get a bridge that I like on an instrument I am very careful to keep it happy and straight so I can keep it for years and years.  I think if a person was only good at cutting great bridges and sound post adjustment and not much else you could have a career in just about any major city, sort of like a cardiologist for violins.

 

 

DLB

[kyproset]

I've read somewhere that the strings and bridge sit on a resonator. When the bow is applied on to the string, for the resonator to start doing its job the stages before ( strings and bridge) have to be perfectly adjusted.
I think this little statement shows the importance of proper bridge tuning and string selection.

[Don Noon]

I'd be surprised if shaving a small sliver of wood from the bridge would produce any significant change in its vibrational spectrum.

But I'd be delighted to see evidence to the contrary.

 

Exactly my thoughts and experience so far.  What also seems suspect is that this one change reportedly results in a wide variety of improvements with no tradeoffs... a miracle cure for all ills.

 

 

I've read somewhere that the strings and bridge sit on a resonator. When the bow is applied on to the string, for the resonator to start doing its job the stages before ( strings and bridge) have to be perfectly adjusted.

I think this little statement shows the importance of proper bridge tuning and string selection.

 

To me, this statement is just vague technical-sounding babble.  That's not to say that bridge tuning and string selection are unimportant... they are.... but for the reason of satisfying the ear of the player.  Forget trying to find a simple physical description of how that is accomplished.

[Carl Stross]

 

I'd be surprised if shaving a small sliver of wood from the bridge would produce any significant change in its vibrational spectrum.

 

I think the word is mystified. Not sure, English my 4th language.

[Carl Stross]

I have observed violins being markedly improved by relaxing the strings and then bringing them up to pitch.

I think I have some explanation for this.

[kyproset]

Dear friends,

 

it's such an easy mod, try it and let's compare notes.

Assuming that it works or doesn't work takes us nowhere.

I have a feeling that it could work on some violins while not so well on others.

[Janito]

Perhaps less mystifying if one considers the relationship of the 'under arch' to the amount of wood left between it and the kidney (flexibility of that area). The impact would be very dependent on the wood properties.

 

Perhaps less important, the amount of wood between under-arch and heart.

[Michael_Molnar]

The devil lies in the details: what is a small sliver?  

 

Also, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. That is, you need to have a pretty good violin before any bridge adjustments can be effective.

[Don Noon]

The other question is:  what happens when you take a small sliver too much?

[DGV]

The other question is:  what happens when you take a small sliver too much?

 

Too much of a good thing?  Like richness turns into harshness?  Power turns into shrill?

[The Violin Beautiful]

I was told to let the shape of the arching of the belly dictate the shape of the bridge's lower arch. The idea is that they should complement each other so that the response is even. Adjustments can be made from that point as needed.

 

I think it makes sense to consider the bridge's under arch in the same way we consider the body's arch: higher arching can make the bridge a little more flexible and richer, but at a certain point, it will become too weak and will end up sounding harsh.

[Janito]

I was told to let the shape of the arching of the belly dictate the shape of the bridge's lower arch. The idea is that they should complement each other so that the response is even. Adjustments can be made from that point as needed.

 

I think it makes sense to consider the bridge's under arch in the same way we consider the body's arch: higher arching can make the bridge a little more flexible and richer, but at a certain point, it will become too weak and will end up sounding harsh.

 

Why? They move very differently.

 

Sounds like aesthetics rather than objective acoustics.