Craig Tucker Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 I thought that a post covering this subject would be great, as mentioned in another thread that exists right now. I'm just going to leave this thread for the present moment, and let those that use this method - (who ever wants to) post what they do, and what they use, while I go to breakfast - after all, it IS Fathers Day! I will continue and post exactly what I use when I get back. Many photos are welcome... See y'all in a bit.
Craig Tucker Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 I use the Dremel with a Waverly holder bought, I believe, from Stew-Mac many years ago. It is the same style of holder available virtually everywhere. The Dremel is a variable speed Dremel and the bits I bought from, I forget his name now, but he's another violin maker that deals with various purfling tools. I'll go ahead and list the bits I use, that I now buy direct from the dealer. I cannot remember this crap any more so, I will go ahead and look it all up, and post it (the part numbers and dealers, etc.) here. I know this is merely one way to do this, but it IS the way I do it, and, for me it works very well and very quickly.
Joe Swenson Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 The Commercial Dremel purfling cutter tool (I bought from Stewart McDonald) is designed for guitar work and is too big to get into the corners of a violin or viola. Plus it doesn't have a depth "stop" so when you get into the corners where the thickness is 1 mm greater you cut 1 mm deeper. I bought the flex cable extender for the Dremel and made a smaller version of the Stew-Mac purfling tool, that has a depth stop. This one is not adjustable and is set up for a violin. This one allows me to get into the corners and stay at the proper depth. I am about to make another version of this set up for my cello build. Actually the Stew-Mac version is the right size for the cello. It just needs a depth stop. May go that route. Happy Father's Day!! Cheers, Joe
Peter K-G Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Another alternative, I don't have it myself but have seen the results from a skillful hand https://www.dictum.com/en/musical-instrument-making/special-tools-for-musical-instruments/other-special-tools-for-instrument-making/701108/purfling-router-system
mrbadger Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Purfling routers Carving duplicators CNC machines ... on and on. Do people really not enjoy the hand work?
Craig Tucker Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 Purfling routers Carving duplicators CNC machines ... on and on. Do people really not enjoy the hand work? Ha! you have forgotten to add 'electric lights' to your list of unnecessary modern conveniences.
Michael.N. Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Purfling routers Carving duplicators CNC machines ... on and on. Do people really not enjoy the hand work? May seem somewhat surprising but (for some folk) no!!! I once came across a Guitar makers website with one of those work in progress photo essays. I was absolutely staggered because he seemed to have a power tool for every single operation, I mean tiny insignificant operations where you would think it was quicker/more efficient to do it by hand. Then there was another maker who stated that he would never use a hand tool if he could find a power tool to take it's place. I'm going the other way. The only power tool that I use is a bandsaw, I'm using it less and less. I have used a router but I always end up chewing wood with it. I decided long ago that myself and the router aren't friends. I've put him on the ignore list.
Joe Swenson Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Purfling routers Carving duplicators CNC machines ... on and on. Do people really not enjoy the hand work? For me it's whatever accomplishes the task best. Until I learn to hand purfle I'm not thrashing a perfectly good plate. I already have to do the back plate button area by hand, and until that is perfect, the router which is 100x faster and produces the better results is the tool of choice for me.
FredN Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Hi, I wasn't going to show my rig for purfling for without a doubt it is the Rube Goldberg of them all, but some comments of never use power tools assume the love for making will be as strong as ever, and they will never have the debilities that could be sufficient to prevent making.(Also a nasty spider bite on my ankle has me chair bound) Age and near useless hands give the option of quitting, or devise something to do steps stressful and really have no import to sound. I thought back how I made my first inst's, and I still can't figure out how I did some steps with the few tools I had. Originally the rig was much smaller, made only for violas up to 16", but I mindlessly decided to make a top for a cello lacking one, totally forgetting the stress on hands for purfling and had to enlarge it to cello. The vertical pipe is a Sears holder for portable tools mounted upside down, the base on top. The Ryobi router was a bargain from Harbor Freight held by wires to the Sears holder. The router can be moved vertically and clamped to an approximate place, and there is a threaded micro adjustment on the right side to make the desired adjustment. It is quite accurate I think for these needs. There is an adjustable guide to regulate the cut from the edge and a variable speed foot switch to run it. There is a rod that you can move the router up and down about an inch to lower and raise from the work. Pretty basic stuff. I also use for other tasks such as getting a uniform thickness around the edge to start the gutter, finish the edge after purfling, but the main job is cutting the groove for the purfling. When I first started I made one cello and can't even remember cutting the groove it was so unimportant, not know. Some of the tools needed for doing this work are shown, and the wood thing on the right is an anvil I attach to the table when I want to depth drill the inside of the plate. I depth drill down in increments of ca 5-6 mm, chisel, repeat until I get within 1-2mm of the thickness of various areas. I also used it to drill over 500 depth holes in a viola top to see what happens. My tops are thin to start with, and there wasn't that much difference, lower string got too deep, almost cello-like as I recall.
Craig Tucker Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 For me it's whatever accomplishes the task best. Until I learn to hand purfle I'm not thrashing a perfectly good plate. I already have to do the back plate button area by hand, and until that is perfect, the router which is 100x faster and produces the better results is the tool of choice for me. Me also. I started with the hand purfling marker/cutter, but about ten plates in, I discovered the Dremel, and after about two plates worth of practice - the results were around ten times better, much more accurate, cleaner, and about twenty times faster than hand cutting - so no, I've got nothing against hand cutting the purfling channel - but I'm also looking for results and accuracy. And I'm not very 'romantic' about following the methodology of the makers of old - or if I were, I do believe that I would only make violins in natural day light, because artificial light IS just as modern as the router is, and is not something that the makers of old would have had or used also. Right?
Craig Tucker Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 BTW Joe and everyone else, thanks for posting here, I'm going to continue with some more minutia and details of my own methods and tools re purfling, but probably I'll get back here tomorrow. Sunday is a day for the wife and family, and I just get to sneak in and post once in a while...
Christopher Jacoby Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 The Tom Croen Foredom setup is the cat's pajamas
Joe Swenson Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 BTW Joe and everyone else, thanks for posting here, I'm going to continue with some more minutia and details of my own methods and tools re purfling, but probably I'll get back here tomorrow. Sunday is a day for the wife and family, and I just get to sneak in and post once in a while... You all have helped me so much. Just happy when I have something to contribute to the conversation. Cheers, Joe
Michael.N. Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Me also. I started with the hand purfling marker/cutter, but about ten plates in, I discovered the Dremel, and after about two plates worth of practice - the results were around ten times better, much more accurate, cleaner, and about twenty times faster than hand cutting - so no, I've got nothing against hand cutting the purfling channel - but I'm also looking for results and accuracy. And I'm not very 'romantic' about following the methodology of the makers of old - or if I were, I do believe that I would only make violins in natural day light, because artificial light IS just as modern as the router is, and is not something that the makers of old would have had or used also. Right? True. They didn't have CNC machines either but many seem to think that is 'cheating'. These stances always seem to end up the same way: the purists v the great unwashed. Actually I use a stance that has me (and you) covered: use the tool that you feel comfortable with. If that's CNC, so be it. Personally I'm not that comfortable with any power tool and nor do I like their noisy environment. Sometimes it is about the journey. For others that journey can't end soon enough.
Michael_Molnar Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 True. They didn't have CNC machines either but many seem to think that is 'cheating'. These stances always seem to end up the same way: the purists v the great unwashed. Actually I use a stance that has me (and you) covered: use the tool that you feel comfortable with. If that's CNC, so be it. Personally I'm not that comfortable with any power tool and nor do I like their noisy environment. Sometimes it is about the journey. For others that journey can't end soon enough. Good for you, Michael. But I tell you what. You go to your church and I'll go to ... --- well, I'll stay home.
Craig Tucker Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 True. They didn't have CNC machines either but many seem to think that is 'cheating'. These stances always seem to end up the same way: the purists v the great unwashed. Actually I use a stance that has me (and you) covered: use the tool that you feel comfortable with. If that's CNC, so be it. Personally I'm not that comfortable with any power tool and nor do I like their noisy environment. Sometimes it is about the journey. For others that journey can't end soon enough. Yes, that's a great way of stating things, as they stand. I am, of course, a member of the 'great unwashed tribe' thinking that - were Strad alive today - well, no need to go into an elaborate discourse here... of course you can just read our handbook; The GUT Wrenching Truth (ha! ha! ha! GUT - Great Unwashed Tribe... yeah, oh well, I thought that it was pretty funny...) I buy my bits from; RobbJack Solid Carbide End Mills, a company that sells bits either on-line or by catalog. But I can see that there are already many more suppliers of these type of correct size purfling end mills, for the public to just go ahead and pick one from. The ones I use, automatically cut a slot the right size for the purfling to slip into rather snugly - in one pass of the Dremel. And they are a downcutting bit, so they tend to clutter up the slot as you go with the cut wood. .Afterwards - you must go around the perimeter with a small tool and clean out the wood from the channel. The addition of hot hide glue, along with the purfling, gets everything set just right. so that the dried purfling in the channel, can then be cut down to beyond the surface of the plate, easily. I did look on my end mills - but the size markings have worn off. The days when I could parrot off all of these things with alacrity are now sadly departed, and I have to struggle to regain some of this once automatic chatter. So, I'll look up the numbers as I save all of my old violin related paperwork - but God! what a collection of paperwork to have to go thru... And, by the way, for me the Stew-Mac Dremel routing jig works fine for getting the inside the violins cc's purfled also. The bottom of the jig (my jig) had been shortened ( see the photograph above) to allow it to rotate inside the c's. Though I do think there may be some great advantage to Joe's smaller version, and the flex shaft... I still have a Dremel flex shaft from "the old days" of trying everything I could think of, but I no longer use it. I go right on up to the corners of the plates (both plates) and then finish the corners - where the stings are - and where the corners meet - by hand.
Craig Tucker Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 Good for you, Michael. But I tell you what. You go to your church and I'll go to ... --- well, I'll stay home. Oh, so you're the same denomination as I am?
Craig Tucker Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 7974_481801121908949_853192161_n.jpg Happy Father's Day!! Cheers, Joe Joe, am I understanding this picture right? Is that "violin segment" sitting on top of the bottom plate, the thing that you use to set the depth and the width correctly (and automatically) for the bit and the jig?
Michael Darnton Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 I assume people have seen my rig, here, second item in the second section: http://darntonviolins.com/violinmaking.php The foundation of it is a 2x2" strip of maple with a section sawn out to turn it into the wood equivalent of angle iron. But I also wanted to comment that in the past I have used a rig somewhat like FredN's, but in the form of a small router bit in a drill press, and a wooden top for the table with a pan-head screw with a short piece of brass tube slipped on it screwed into the table. The height of the pan-head off the table provides a hold-down for the plate edge (not strictly necessary, but nice to have, the brass tube on it is the bearing for the distance from the edge for the cutting (running directly against the screw's threads does actually work, though), and the drill press used at its highest speed does the cutting. In order to get in and out, you need to raise the quill (set the table as high as possible so the quill is extended the minimum for the least slop), and for that I set the quill height and then used an elastic shock cord to one of the quill handles to hold the quill down for routing. Knocking the table sets the distance in from the edge inelegantly but effectively. This rig works just fine, especially if all you have is a drill press.
Joe Swenson Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Joe, am I understanding this picture right? Is that "violin segment" sitting on top of the bottom plate, the thing that you use to set the depth and the width correctly (and automatically) for the bit and the jig? Yes exactly. I had some 5 mm thick "repair spruce" from Simeon Chambers that I cut the shape of the plate to get the depth and width checked and to just practice with the tool on the corners.
Joe Swenson Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Another alternative, I don't have it myself but have seen the results from a skillful hand https://www.dictum.com/en/musical-instrument-making/special-tools-for-musical-instruments/other-special-tools-for-instrument-making/701108/purfling-router-system Hi Peter, That tool looks good for depth and edge distance adjustment, but has no base to keep the tool vertical. Like the tools you can hold down flat on a smooth surface to cut the groove. This looks like it would take some practice. Joe
Craig Tucker Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Posted June 22, 2015 I assume people have seen my rig, here, second item in the second section: http://darntonviolins.com/violinmaking.php The foundation of it is a 2x2" strip of maple with a section sawn out to turn it into the wood equivalent of angle iron. But I also wanted to comment that in the past I have used a rig somewhat like FredN's, but in the form of a small router bit in a drill press, and a wooden top for the table with a pan-head screw with a short piece of brass tube slipped on it screwed into the table. The height of the pan-head off the table provides a hold-down for the plate edge (not strictly necessary, but nice to have, the brass tube on it is the bearing for the distance from the edge for the cutting (running directly against the screw's threads does actually work, though), and the drill press used at its highest speed does the cutting. In order to get in and out, you need to raise the quill (set the table as high as possible so the quill is extended the minimum for the least slop), and for that I set the quill height and then used an elastic shock cord to one of the quill handles to hold the quill down for routing. Knocking the table sets the distance in from the edge inelegantly but effectively. This rig works just fine, especially if all you have is a drill press. Hey Michael, it's really great to see you here posting ... Yes, I've read through your method(s) from way back when, about when I decided to try the Dremel, in place of the hand 'jig' that you show and use. My good friend Francis Cox used the " drill Press" method, on all of his violins, for many years, and thought that a Dremel was for sissies... So - I guess I'll cop to that. Ahh - so many ways to get the same job done right.
Joe Swenson Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 I assume people have seen my rig, here, second item in the second section: http://darntonviolins.com/violinmaking.php The foundation of it is a 2x2" strip of maple with a section sawn out to turn it into the wood equivalent of angle iron. ... Thanks for posting this Michael. I should have remembered and mentioned that looking at your design was what inspired me to make the the smaller version of the Stew Mac purfling tool with the much needed depth stop. Joe
Joe Swenson Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Purfling routers Carving duplicators CNC machines ... on and on. Do people really not enjoy the hand work? Ha! you have forgotten to add 'electric lights' to your list of unnecessary modern conveniences. I suspect Stradivari made use of every modern tool at his disposal as well. And he did in a way have a CNC machine of sorts.. They were called apprentices. How many instruments do you suppose the master could have produced had he worked alone? Joe
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