Sharpening stones- what do you use?

[Michael Doran]

Hi All,

The King Japanese water stones I bought in violinmaking school are almost worn out, and I need to replace them. When I started to look into it I noticed there are several new options for sharpening stones that weren't available to me back then.

I'm particularly curious about people's experience with other brands of water stone, like Norton or Naniwa, as well as the Shapton Glass "stones," which seem like an intersting concept.

I've been using mostly a 1200 for initial honing and finishing almost all of my tools on a 4000. I like the 4000 grit because it seems course enough to remove a little metal, but fine enough to leave a mirror polish. I do finish my jointer plane on an 8000, but that one still has a lot of life left in it."

Given how long the stones are likely to last me, I don't mind spending some money for quality.

Any recommendations or experiences would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Michael

[not telling]

King is still standard (I guess) but I also have thought there are seemingly a lot of options if looking outside of Lee Valley. Great topic.

I would like to add to this, some are taught to put these stones in water all the time, and some are not. Obviously the things probably wear out faster (for a life of ten years or so) if they are always soaking.

Any disadvantages to keeping them in water, or not? I'm curious about what others do.

[Jim Bress]

Hi Michael, I use Sigma II water stones that I bought from Lee Valley http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67089&cat=1,43072,67175 and I like them a lot.  I have 240, 1k, 3k, and 10k grit.  The 240 was handy when I needed to take a lot of material off.  Since I've picked up a Tormek on Craig's list I don't use the 240 any more.  I find there is a big difference between the edge I get from the 3k and the 10K.  The 10k stone seems to cut quickly and it's the stone I use the most.  Last year my 10k stone developed cracks and started falling apart (there's a thread on it somewhere).  LV replaced the stone for free, so +1 for LV service whatever you buy.  Unfortunately, I can't say how the Sigmas work compared to other stones because before these I used my father's oil stone which wasn't really up to the task. 

 

-Jim

 

Just read NT's post.  I know longer leave my stones in water after use just incase that's what caused the early demise of my 10k stone.

[Stephen Churchill]

I had been using a Norton 1000x/4000x and a 10000x Sigma Power Select II Ceramic Water Stone.  I loved the 10000, but it kept falling apart, not really sure what i was doing wrong.

I recently transisition to 1200x and 8000x DMT DiaSharp Stones.  I had regarded diamond sharpening as gimmicky, but decided to give it a try.  I'm happy with the results, my plane is doing great.  It means more flushing of the surface of the 'stone', but its much less messy and faster in the end.  No need to soak, no need to truing and cuts fast.  One odd thing is i'm not getting a mirror finish on my 8000x, i'm told there is a break-in period for these stones, maybe thats it.

 

Stephen

[Stephen Churchill]

Hi Michael, I use Sigma II water stones that I bought from Lee Valley http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67089&cat=1,43072,67175 and I like them a lot.  I have 240, 1k, 3k, and 10k grit.  The 240 was handy when I needed to take a lot of material off.  Since I've picked up a Tormek on Craig's list I don't use the 240 any more.  I find there is a big difference between the edge I get from the 3k and the 10K.  The 10k stone seems to cut quickly and it's the stone I use the most.  Last year my 10k stone developed cracks and started falling apart (there's a thread on it somewhere).  LV replaced the stone for free, so +1 for LV service whatever you buy.  Unfortunately, I can't say how the Sigmas work compared to other stones because before these I used my father's oil stone which wasn't really up to the task. 

 

-Jim

 

Just read NT's post.  I know longer leave my stones in water after use just incase that's what caused the early demise of my 10k stone.

Hey Jim,

  LV replaced my 10k stone twice.  I eventually switched to the DMT 8K diamond stone.

[Urban Luthier]

HI Michael

 

I've used the glass-backed 1000 and 16000 shapton stones for years. The cut really really fast and work on all types of steel and leave the most regular scratch pattern I've ever seen. Down sides are they are expenseive and need to be flattened with every use which means one needs invest in either their expensive flattening diamond plate or a 3rd party plate.

 

let us know how you get on!

 

Chris

[Jim Bress]

Hey Jim,

  LV replaced my 10k stone twice.  I eventually switched to the DMT 8K diamond stone.

Yikes, did you leave your stone in water?  Her's my "cracked waterstone" thread http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/331729-cracked-waterstone/#entry657141

I now remove my stones from water when not in use, and leave my 10k stone on a piece of granite tile covered with a rubber non-slip pad (drawer liner).  I never do more than spritz it now as per email instructions recieved from LV.  Hopefully this one will last. 

[Michael Doran]

HI Michael

 

I've used the glass-backed 1000 and 16000 shapton stones for years. The cut really really fast and work on all types of steel and leave the most regular scratch pattern I've ever seen. Down sides are they are expenseive and need to be flattened with every use which means one needs invest in either their expensive flattening diamond plate or a 3rd party plate.

 

let us know how you get on!

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm surprised to hear that the glass stones need flattening. I thought that was one of their advantages over traditional water stones.

Michael

[Matthew Noykos]

I use the Shapton glass stones and I don't flatten them all that often. If you like your stones to be super flat all the time, you will need to flatten them just like anything else. I used to have the Norton stones and I used to use a variety of Japanese water stones at the shop I worked at. The Nortons and the Japanese water stones needed to be soaking all the time to be ready for sharpening. The Shaptons are not meant to be soaking. I just put a little water on them and start sharpening. I have an olive oil dispenser filled with water for this purpose.

The Shaptons cut faster than the other stuff and they wear slower too. They look thin in comparison to other stones but because they wear slower, they last. Also the glass backing allows you to wear them right to the end, where other stones will crack before you get to the end.

[Matthew Noykos]

I wish I knew what those other stones were at my previous job at Pasewicz's shop. The only one I know was the Takenoko. I finished blades with that stone.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156658/Takenoko-Polishing-Stone-8000-Grit.aspx

I would say I still like my Shaptons better, but those Japanese stones I used were comparable. I definitely like the Shaptons better than the Nortons I had. I had the Norton combination stones of 1000 to 8000.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I use oil stones going from a course India to a medium Washita to a very fine white Arkansas.  These served generations of wood craftsmen well and stay flat if used well. I'll probably substitute the India for a faster cutting Ezylap Diamond stone at some point. I don't like soft stones, especially for gouges.

[Matthew Noykos]

Melvin's post makes me realize that just about anything will work really. It's just what you get used to.

[edi malinaric]

Hi All - what's this "flattening" that you refer to? Just try wet-and-dry on glass and leave your stones on the shelf.

cheers edi

[David Burgess]

I've used the glass-backed 1000 and 16000 shapton stones for years. The cut really really fast and work on all types of steel and leave the most regular scratch pattern I've ever seen. Down sides are they are expenseive and need to be flattened with every use which means one needs invest in either their expensive flattening diamond plate or a 3rd party plate.

 

I got some of the Shapton stones after trying them at a VSA Convention. Happiest I've ever been.

I certainly don't find the need to flatten them with every use. I'll guess it's more like every 20th time, and then only if I'm sharpening something I need to be flat, like a plane blade.

 

I use sandpaper on a piece of glass for flattening mine. Too cheap to buy the diamond plate, and didn't see any advantage to doing so.

 

The two or three diamond plates I've owned were pretty cool at first, but got dull fast enough that I haven't bothered with buying any more.

[MarkBouquet]

I use various diamond and water stones for sharpening straight edged tools like chisels and plane irons. But for any tool with a curved edge, e.g., gouges, spoon bottom planes, curved blade knives, etc., I use one of these. And it's useful for a million other things in the shop as well. I have belts ranging from 36 grit aluminum oxide all the way to 15 micron silcon carbide, and 6 micron 3M "Trizect" belts. (Lee Valley is one good source for these.) The machine can sharpen "all the way from crayons to perfume." I also have a leather stroping belt for it. One of my photographs shows the reversing switch I added to it, necessary for the stroping belt and useful for many other applications.

I also photographed the tool rest to show you a modification I made to it. I cut that slot that the supporting bolt slides up and down in with a Bridgeport mill. That allows me to reposition the tool rest from the original design spec, and allows a much greater range of angle positioning. You will understand the change better if you look at an unmodified machine.

Finally, there's some photographs of a curved plane blade from a plane that I purchased at an estate sale. The blade was completely misshapen so that it didn't match the contour of the plane sole, and the bevel was rounded over too. It took about 10 minutes to go from that to what you see in the photos.

[Jerry Lynn]

I got some of the Shapton stones after trying them at a VSA Convention. Happiest I've ever been.

I certainly don't find the need to flatten them with every use. I'll guess it's more like every 20th time, and then only if I'm sharpening something I need to be flat, like a plane blade.

 

I use sandpaper on a piece of glass for flattening mine

I started using Shapton professional stones on the advice of David, and I couldn't be happier with them. They sit in a drawer under my bench and can be ready to hone at a moments notice. For me it seems like every 50th use I'll find the need to flatten.

[John Harte]

I got some of the Shapton stones after trying them at a VSA Convention. Happiest I've ever been.

 

David, what grits do you use?

 

Thanks.

[Urban Luthier]

Hi Chris,

I'm surprised to hear that the glass stones need flattening. I thought that was one of their advantages over traditional water stones.

Michael

Hey Michael

 

they are glass backed to support the very thin stone 1/4 in I think. Because the stones cut so fast they wear more quickly and need to be trued after every use. I think there are videos somewhere that shows how they are used. I'll try to find something a bit later

 

when i say they cut fast i mean fast -- you can put a burr on with the 1K stone in 3 strokes

[Urban Luthier]

I got some of the Shapton stones after trying them at a VSA Convention. Happiest I've ever been.

I certainly don't find the need to flatten them with every use. I'll guess it's more like every 20th time, and then only if I'm sharpening something I need to be flat, like a plane blade.

 

I use sandpaper on a piece of glass for flattening mine. Too cheap to buy the diamond plate, and didn't see any advantage to doing so.

 

The two or three diamond plates I've owned were pretty cool at first, but got dull fast enough that I haven't bothered with buying any more.

ah I see you are using shapton pros. These are thicker and tuned for 01 steel. The ones i use are shapton glass stones -- these are tuned for cutting a2 steel really fast which might explain why they wear so quickly

[David Burgess]

ah I see you are using shapton pros.

Oops, yes, mine are the "professional". Didn't even know there were other types.

 

David, what grits do you use?

 

Thanks.

I have a 320, a 1000 and a 2000, but the 2000 is about all I ever use. If I need faster material removal than the 2000, I use a grinder, and go directly from that to the 2000. After that, a half-dozen swipes on a leather strop charged with some kind of white-colored polishing compound (swipe at an angle to the scratches left from the stone to get rid of them), and I'm done.

Except for a final check with a jeweler's loupe to see if there are any honing scratches or wire edges on the cutting edge I missed, or nicks or I missed when grinding or honing.

 

Sorry, I don't know what the white polishing compound is any more. Been using the same stick for years and years.

[David Holbrook]

 I am in Melvins camp and have moved to all oil stones. Old vintage oil stones. Used with oil, not water. I used japanese stones for a long time and know they can be great but I have found them too messy and high maintenance for me personally. Also as mentioned above I have lost some good water stones because I let my shop get too cold.

 

  There are great old stones out there for not much money which is helpful for me. I can have stones just for gouges or just for knives. A stone to fit any mood.

 

 Like Melvin I do use an India ( man made carbarundum) stone for courser work but hope to someday find a nice large diamond stone to replace it. I have used india stones to flatten oil stones but try not to buy them if they have been abused.

 

  I mix half mineral oil and half odorless lamp oil for honing, also not expensive. OK water is cheaper I suppose.

[Stephen Faulk]

I have KIngs water stones and they have not worn out yet. I use 400 diamond stone to cut and shape, then 800 King and then sometimes the 1200 and then 7000, most of the time just the 7000 and then leather strop with compound. 

 

I also use the left over woven micro abrasive pads for rubbing out finishes. When they are too worn out for finishes I lay the sheets on the leather strop and pull the flat side of the blade over them. This really removes any micro sized burrs from the edge that regular stropping may not get. Sometimes going from 800 king direct to the woven abrasive gives excellent results. When the woven abrasive sheets are worn out I guess they are anywhere between 1500 and 3000 grit equivalent wet-dry paper. 

[John Harte]

Oops, yes, mine are the "professional". Didn't even know there were other types.

 

I have a 320, a 1000 and a 2000, but the 2000 is about all I ever use. If I need faster material removal than the 2000, I use a grinder, and go directly from that to the 2000. After that, a half-dozen swipes on a leather strop charged with some kind of white-colored polishing compound (swipe at an angle to the scratches left from the stone to get rid of them), and I'm done.

Except for a final check with a jeweler's loupe to see if there are any honing scratches or wire edges on the cutting edge I missed, or nicks or I missed when grinding or honing.

 

Sorry, I don't know what the white polishing compound is any more. Been using the same stick for years and years.

 

David, thanks for your reply.  This is very helpful.

 

John

[HongDa]

I use an 800 grit kingstone....the red one. It is quite soft and I'd switch it for a Shapton of similar grit if I could......just to save time from having to flatten the Kingstone.
Then I used to jump straight from that to a 6,000 grit Kingstone.
Finally strop it on a piece of leather with that green stropping rouge. Recently I add a little powdered aluminum oxide powder to the leather. Thats what is used for stone polish......you can buy is at a lapidary shop.

I was given a 16,000 grit Shapton which is nice but I don't find a need to get the blade so shiney and prefer it not to be. I also didn't find it needs flattening very often.....definately not as much as the soft kingstones. It also needs a slurry stone from my experience.

I was lucky some years ago and found a motherload of old natural Japanese stones at an old mom and pop hardware shop on the bottom shelf covered in dust. Paid like 10 bucks for each one. With the internet now I was able to identify them and they go for hundreds of dollars if you can find them. I gave them all away as gifts accept one for myself...........before I knew what they were worth

So now I jump from the 800 grit straight to the natural Japanese stone which I guess to be around 8,000 grit. I use what's left of the 6,000  King as a slurry stone.

If I need to flatten a blade such as a plane or chisel blade I just use carborundum powder on a hard steel lapping plate with oil.

To flatten stones I use the same plate with an abrasive mesh sheet I bought in Japan. The mesh is waterproof so you can just run water over it as you flatten your stones and it doesn't clog. I think the one I have is around 220 grit.
Yeah sounds crazy to flatten an 8,000 grit stone on 220 grit......but I have no problems with sharpening after. I will sometimes run over it a bit with my 6,000 to smooth it more.

I don't think all these fancy, expensive, time consuming stone flattening systems are necessary......anymore than going through a whole series of grits to arrive at a sharpened tool that you can also see yourself in like a small  mirror are.

As my teacher said to me years ago...."Just get the thing sharp and get back to work!"

I also got some thin aluminum oxide ceramic plates from a friend used for making ozone generators........I occasionally work there part time as the gluing expert for larger industrial units........or if mistakes are done in gluing of the smaller units I'm called in to figure out ways to unglue them to retrieve the aluminum plates and heat sinks. I got this part time job because I know how to work fast with quick setting glues .....like hide glue . Those ceramic plates are probably like 25,000 grit but cut very slowly.......it was just an experiment. Interestingly I found if I added tripoli powder it cuts metal quite fast. Apparently barber's strops have tripoli on one side and aluminum oxide on the other.

You can also now buy pretty cheap diamond sheets to be put on glass at very high grits if you really want to get that shine. Lapidary shops have sold this stuff for years but it seems to be getting popular with sharpening gurus now.
(Sharpening with Diamond Lapping Film..... http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/sharpening-with-diamond-lapping-film   )

I did a lot of lapidary as a kid. You can get many ideas of how stones are shaped  and polished in lapidary.
Sometimes it's amazingly simple.
In this case I guess it's the silca in the bamboo that's doing the polishing.

Bamboozled
Final polishing for jade cabochons is often done with a piece of bamboo mounted on the end of a lathe. This photo was taken in Mogaung's jade market. Photo: R.W. Hughes


 

[HongDa]

Sorry, I don't know what the white polishing compound is any more. Been using the same stick for years and years.

Didn't see your comment earlier about the white compound. It's probably aluminum oxide. If I remember correctly it's somewhat finer than whatever the green sticks are. I've also seen red.

I have the white stuff in powder form and just sprinkle a little on my strop with a few drops of oil.

I think the sticks could be bought through a jewelry making supplier......for polishing metals. The powder through a lapidary supplier.

Just found this....they have all kinds now: