violin labeling

[mikeconroy]

new.member here. i wanted to ask you violin makers about wording in my violin labels.... if you redo a white violin you bought, (oil varnish, pegs, fingerboard, tailpiece etc...  how would you word the label?  if you are just setting up violins and reselling--any label?  and of course one i made from start to finish-  what's the wording on it.... thanks mike conroy

[kwebb]

If you don't mind me adding to your inquiry - How are the labels made and from what materials? I assume it's something like acid free paper and toner?

[Addie]

If you don't mind me adding to your inquiry - How are the labels made and from what materials? I assume it's something like acid free paper and toner?

[Rue]

I still don't quite understand why you wouldn't just go and have a bunch of labels professionally made...using high quality paper.

It would add such a nice finishing touch...

[Addie]

People like me just provide the artwork. That can be printed out, made into a stamp, made into a letterpress block... Most choose to print their own. 25% cotton is the minimum, 100% laid linen is the best, but not the best for laser printing.

[Will L]

new.member here. i wanted to ask you violin makers about wording in my violin labels.... if you redo a white violin you bought, (oil varnish, pegs, fingerboard, tailpiece etc...  how would you word the label?  if you are just setting up violins and reselling--any label?  and of course one i made from start to finish-  what's the wording on it.... thanks mike conroy

Actually a very good question, showing that you're trying to be honest.

 

I don't know how to classify your situation in a few words on a label.  Shops often have a class of violin which includes "Shop Violin" on the label, for example.  I suppose you could do that.  It's short and business-like; implies there is something lesser about the instrument; and if someone asks, you can give a more thorough explanation.  I imagine someone has a better way, but my point is to keep it short. 

[Addie]

"Assembled in the United States from Imported Parts" doesn't sound classy enough?

[Rue]

When da Vinci was busy filling up all those notebooks...

What kind of paper and ink did he use?

I think I knew once...maybe...

[Will L]

"Assembled in the United States from Imported Parts" doesn't sound classy enough?

Well, the American way would be to go to a lawyer and spend $6,000 to draw up appropriate wording to protect the maker under all circumstances—which still wouldn't prevent a client from going to court anyway, and probably prevailing.

 

The label would be 32,000 words in small print and require a label covering the entire interior of the violin except for two little holes where the sound post would contact the top and back.  The maker would no doubt be required by some governmental agency to install mirrors on the violin so that a prospective owner could read the entire label.  "Cradle to grave" includes protecting us from dangerous characters like luthiers. 

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

Anyone for a little gall ink?  Easy and cheap to make.  Shouldn't fade too much, lurking as it does inside the box.

[Rue]

Okay. ..da Vinci used gall ink on parchment?

Gall ink is acidic and eats through parchment...

But it is the ink used to write the dead sea scrolls too.

[Addie]

As has been discussed before, printer's ink was linseed oil based.

[Rue]

Now I have to go look up printer's ink!

Maybe I didn't ask properly.

What (historically) is the most stable "paper". And what is the (historically) most stable ink?

[Michael_Molnar]

I think label making is part of the art of lutherie. It is a fun challenge and with modern equipment all kinds of possibilities exist.

 

I really do not worry about my paper's longevity as much as I worry about my own. 

 

BTW, I also stamp my label inside on the scroll block which can be seen from the end button hole. 

[Rue]

I suppose I find it a bit cryptic.

 

Let's make a violin exactly the way Strad made his back in 1700 - let's discuss (ad infinitum) the importance of using the best quality materials so that we turn out a quality product that will also last for hundreds of years...

 

...but let's print labels on questionable paper with questionable ink...

[Stephen Churchill]

Theoretically, if you're making a printed label or a printed form, a laser printers "ink" (aka toner). Toner is carbon mixed with a polymer (styrene acrylate copolymer, a polyester resin, a styrene butadiene copolymer, or a few other special polymers - Wikipedia). The last printer melts it to the paper. Should last a long, long, time.

[Stephen Churchill]

I think label making is part of the art of lutherie. It is a fun challenge and with modern equipment all kinds of possibilities exist.

 

I really do not worry about my paper's longevity as much as I worry about my own. 

 

BTW, I also stamp my label inside on the scroll block which can be seen from the end button hole. 

 

Hi Michael,

  Great idea about stamping inside.  Do you use a bridge stamp or something else?

 

Thanks

Stephen

[kwebb]

Is there a standard size for violin labels? Is it larger for viola? Or just what looks good. Google search of violin label gives a wide variety of sizes. 

[edi malinaric]

Theoretically, if you're making a printed label or a printed form, a laser printers "ink" (aka toner). Toner is carbon mixed with a polymer (styrene acrylate copolymer, a polyester resin, a styrene butadiene copolymer, or a few other special polymers - Wikipedia). The last printer melts it to the paper. Should last a long, long, time.

 

Hi All - I got all serious about my label and bought some archival paper - guaranteed for 500 years or so.

 

Lazer printed the label - about 36 to an A4 sheet.

 

Horror - the toner started lifting off the sheet at the lightest of touches. Of course this only happened after it was glued into the violin. I attempted to touch it up with my 0.1 pen but... not so good.

 

After some more research turned up the fact that the resin binder has to be raised to a high enough temperature to "fix" the toner to the paper. My paper was heavier than the normal A4 paper which prevented the temperature getting high enough - the heat has to come through the paper to the toner.

 

At the office no-one was prepared to let me fool about inside the printer to raise the temperature of the drum, so I covered the printed sheet of paper with a teflon baking sheet and wound my wife's iron up to max and ironed away. When things cooled off the toner resisted being scratched off quite nicely.

 

 

For what it's worth...

 

cheers edi

[Addie]

Many printers have a heavy paper/card stock setting.  You also want to use the best print quality, which uses heavier amounts of toner.  I know what you mean about horror... I've had that happen.

[David Beard]

I admit this is weirdly extreme, but I actually designed a logo and font, then hand carved a logo stamp in copper and another stamp for the rest of my label in boxwood.  Also, I've always collected old books.  Among them I have some low value and otherwise uninteresting 18th century and early 19th century books.  Some of these have some nice laid paper, and here and there a blank page...  India ink to pull a print, and a nib pen finishes the job.

 

Totally unnecessary, but I do enjoy making these labels.

[mikeconroy]

back to my original question- what specific wording would typically be used on a label of a white import violin i varnished and added pegs, bridge, tailpiece, chinrest, strings etc  From the shop of xxxxxx violins?  

[Stephen Faulk]

You might think about two labels, one for your 100% original work and one for assembled sets of premade parts. Think about two lines in your shop, one line is the varnished violin in the white, the other is your own work. Call the violin in the white line a special name, something that alludes to Italy, or a piece of music you like, or a made up name, etc.

 

For me it would be something silly like Stefano da Salo or Santus Falconi.....really stupid, but I've wanted to make these as joke labels.    

 

Or you can call the line  for example - "La Concerto" or "Chaconne"  then in your sales information about the violin explain that it is a violin in the white and it is your 'house brand' That is a common way of dealing with instruments  you don't completely make yourself. You put in a separate house label and save your own name for a separate label of your original work. 

 

Ethically you don't really have to explain on the label that is it from an instrument in the white as long as your sales work informs the public of what it is. Then a serial number or product chronology mark of some type indicating how many have been made in that line and date. Sometimes makers designate these house brands by stating 2-A on the label meaning it's the house second tier brand which saves the 1-A designation for handmade work. 

[Renée]

What (historically) is the most stable "paper". And what is the (historically) most stable ink?

 

Paper can be anything that's labelled acid free, or of archival quality.  I've tried a variety of water colour papers, but find the surface is often too rough to write on easily with a nib.  True vellum is lovely to write on but expensive for this purpose.  Vegetable parchmentine (also known as pergamenanta) is a darn fine substitute.

I'd say anything from John Neale Bookstores, being a specialist calligraphy and bookbinding supplier. I'm quite partial to the Clairefontaine writing pads for broad nib calligraphy - good smooth paper, that holds the ink really well, with little feathering and I can see it gluing quite nicely to the inside of a violin.

 

Ink - fine carbon particles in glair is a stable ink.  The glair makes it waterproof, but it often needs some gum arabic and/or ox gall to give it good flow.

[Will L]

Actually a very good question, showing that you're trying to be honest.

 

I don't know how to classify your situation in a few words on a label.  Shops often have a class of violin which includes "Shop Violin" on the label, for example.  I suppose you could do that.  It's short and business-like; implies there is something lesser about the instrument; and if someone asks, you can give a more thorough explanation.  I imagine someone has a better way, but my point is to keep it short. 

The thing about "shop" or "from the shop" implies a violin has been made by more than just one person.  But certainly it implies it was made in a specific location: the maker's shop. Whether it implies the whole violin—unvarnished—came from China is doubtful, IMO.  

 

So if you're trying to be scrupulous, I think you should find a short and pleasant wording to hint or suggest that; so I don't see anything wrong with Stephen's suggestions.

 

There is another problem that might be considered:  How will people "read" the labels on your personal work once you have flooded the market with the lesser products (exaggeration ).  It might be that you will almost have to put a label on your personal violins which pleads:  "Honest to God, folks, I REALLY DID make this one."  I have a Scott Cao personal violin, and invariably clients want to know if it really is; his label should say it all, but he's allowed or created a problem.  What I'm suggesting is that what you put on "shop fiddle" labels might effect what you need to put on your personal violins.  The two labels need to be different enough that there is no confusion; and if there IS confusion, it's not going to benefit your reputation, IMO.  

 

—thinking out loud.