A Step in the Right Direction re Ivory?

[Karl Peterson]

Hopefully there is some small bit of relief when traveling with instruments / bows that contain ivory? Not clear how the rules will change, but perhaps a step in the right direction. Article at: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/travel/302219501.html

[FiddleDoug]

Hate to say it, but that doesn't really look like even a glimmer. Unless you have a bow, of known provinance, with continuous certificates certifiying that the ivory tip on your bow is from pre-1976 ivory, you're out of luck. I would venture a guess that 99.9% of bows don't have anything like the proper documentation. The draconian anti-ivory laws enacted in NY and NJ (perhaps other places as well) make things even worse.

[Dwight Brown]

I saw something about Hawaii looking at a law where if the object was less than 20% Ivory it would be OK. (I am not sure about the numbers)

 

 

DLB

[Omobono]

This is why I have a couple of full synthetics now

- just in case.

[Dwight Brown]

This is why I have a couple of full synthetics now

- just in case.

Probably a good idea;

 

DLB

[curious1]

The trade in ivory should end. Full Stop. New, old, antique, reclaimed. No ifs, ands or buts. We are talking about the extinction of a species.

Find a replacement and lets get over it.

[PASEWICZ]

The trade in ivory should end. Full Stop. New, old, antique, reclaimed. No ifs, ands or buts. We are talking about the extinction of a species.

Find a replacement and lets get over it.

No we are not.

We are talking about the destruction of beautiful works of art, the loss of which will not save a single elephant.

Unfortunately it is not black and white, that is the kind of naive one dimensional thinking that got us into this mess.

[Philip Perret]

The trade in ivory should end. Full Stop. New, old, antique, reclaimed. No ifs, ands or buts. We are talking about the extinction of a species.

Find a replacement and lets get over it.

 

No ifs, ands or buts is in my opinion much too simplistic.  What would you like to see done with every antique carving, frog, button, original tip or any other artifact made from any pre-ban or pre-endangered material (ivory, tortoise shell, other shells, skins, leathers, wood etc)?  Have the owners donate them to museums?  Destroy them?  If so, than it's a real loss of many cultural and historical artifacts.  

[PASEWICZ]

No ifs, ands or buts is in my opinion much too simplistic. What would you like to see done with every antique carving, frog, button, original tip or any other artifact made from any pre-ban or pre-endangered material (ivory, tortoise shell, other shells, skins, leathers, wood etc)? Have the owners donate them to museums? Destroy them? If so, than it's a real loss of many cultural and historical artifacts.

You are a wise man Mr. Perret.

[curious1]

If I weigh the priceless works of art against the priceless works of nature I'll take nature. Do you think the greed and avarice of man has any limit? Do you think the last elephant or tiger will be spared if someone can make some money off of it or indulge in some power trip? I think you are being naive.

[Dwight Brown]

You are a wise man Mr. Perret.

and he was my DA in HU-4 a looooooong time ago!  

 

I am afraid that there is almost nothing that can be done to save the elephants.  Perhaps the only thing that can be done is to start an elephant and rhino sancuary outside of africa and raise a protected heard that could some day start to replace what has been lost.  I have no idea how it could be done, but I think we should move some of the remnant away from the war zone.  The people in Africa are having enough trouble keeping body and soul together,  The result of unending poverty and hopelessness, dictators, and endless war has done it's work.

 

Without some major Deus ex Machina I do not think there is much hope.

 

That being said, I see no reason to destroy immortal works of art that can never be replaced, nor should an investment of a lifetime be rendered worthless.

 

DLB

[PASEWICZ]

If I weigh the priceless works of art against the priceless works of nature I'll take nature. Do you think the greed and avarice of man has any limit? Do you think the last elephant or tiger will be spared if someone can make some money off of it or indulge in some power trip? I think you are being naive.

Who said that this is a choice between works of art and works of nature? Destroying these works of art helps elephants how, by making ivory more rare? These dots do not connect. All a complete ban does is allow the advocates of it to fool themselves into believing that they are helping without having to think beyond their own self righteous back patting.

[Craig Tucker]

No we are not.

We are talking about the destruction of beautiful works of art, the loss of which will not save a single elephant.

Unfortunately it is not black and white, that is the kind of naive one dimensional thinking that got us into this mess.

 

Hmmm,

I've got to agree with this thinking.

What's going to save the elephant, if anything is, (which I doubt) it must originate inside the country where the elephant lives, and must be a radical change in attitude, dealing with the elephants that are still alive, and what is done with and to them...

 

It's getting so idiotic that I believe they are considering banning Mastodon tusk, ivory use also.

All of the Mastodons are long gone.

We're talking about fossil ivory now. 

so... what's the point?

 

All this posturing, about 'ivory relics', is just that - a way for everyone to jump on a bandwagon that says "yes, damn it, I care"... but it is really just mostly posturing I'm thinking.

A way we can all "act" without actually having to actually do anything that requires energy, or discipline, or doing something to actually help save the elephant.

The rare person affected, is mostly the small group of people dealing with the rare object(s) having been made with ivory, mostly long before the ban was in effect.

Because not long ago, elephant ivory was not a problem... we didn't have to think about it, we all just used it, bought and sold it, and repaired objects with it, and all the rest.

I know I messed with it for years, and still have a box with many junke bows, some of which must have elephant ivory parts.

God, I feel so guilty... I'd better trash them all  - QUICK (yeah, right)

If anyone cares, then quit killing the elephant now, and quit the modern trade in, not only ivory, but all of the different parts, that different countries "need" and are buying.

 

If not , then the elephant is going to go the way the buffalo did.

Antique Ivory trade, or not.

The ones (buffalo) that used to have herds so large, that they'd thunder through the American wilderness - for days, apparently.

Now, you can go to Buffaloland (<joke, sorry) and see one of their ancestors...

Do we need to set up an Elephantland exhibit next?

Hey, just an opinion.

[Rue]

We are making it all so complicated.  Leave old ivory items in place.  No need to destroy.  Forbid new ivory items from being produced...

 

And let's get on with it.

 

Changing the future is one thing...trying to erase the past is impossible...

[PASEWICZ]

We are making it all so complicated.  Leave old ivory items in place.  No need to destroy.  Forbid new ivory items from being produced...

 

And let's get on with it.

 

Changing the future is one thing...trying to erase the past is impossible...

Indeed this is the way things were before Obama's presidential commission got involved.

[PASEWICZ]

Hmmm,

I've got to agree with this thinking.

Oh my, I think if we agree one of us must be wrong.

[Craig Tucker]

Oh my, I think if we agree one of us must be wrong.

 

Well, did you ever think that we may BOTH be wrong?

Yeah - if we agree on something, perhaps we're both headed for hell in a handbasket....

 

......... nah!

 

 - not on this one, we need to think hard on this one, for a change, if anything *real* is to be done for the remaining elephants.

[curious1]

Who said that this is a choice between works of art and works of nature? Destroying these works of art helps elephants how, by making ivory more rare? These dots do not connect. All a complete ban does is allow the advocates of it to fool themselves into believing that they are helping without having to think beyond their own self righteous back patting.

What would your list of irreplaceable ivory art works look like? Just a short list.

[Peter K-G]

As long as there is a market (buyers) ivory will be used. I say start with the little things STOP using it.

[PASEWICZ]

What would your list of irreplaceable ivory art works look like? Just a short list.

The same list you were referring to in Post #10.."If I weigh the priceless works of art against the priceless works of nature I'll take nature. "

[PASEWICZ]

As long as there is a market (buyers) ivory will be used. I say start with the little things STOP using it.

Of course. Ivory in our business in this country has not been used much since the early 70's. When it has been used for historical reasons, the ivory was certified as pre-ban so no elephants would be harmed.

[Craig Tucker]

We are making it all so complicated.  Leave old ivory items in place.  No need to destroy.  Forbid new ivory items from being produced...

 

And let's get on with it.

 

Changing the future is one thing...trying to erase the past is impossible...

 

Exactly.

 

All this ban on 'all past ivory' does, is make people think that they're doing something great; by destroying their ivory items from the past, after all, it is SOMETHING that can actually be done, today, by virtually everyone alive. 

 

Search out your possible ivory items, and destroy them!

That'll help save the elephants from being destroyed right now, today...

 

Yeah, ok.

 

"Changing the future is one thing, but trying to change the past is impossible"

 

Hmmm.

Geeze, that seems rational enough.

Gosh, let me think about that for a while...

Yeah, ok I've thought about it.

I especially like the second half of that sentence.

[DarylG]

... the ivory was certified as pre-ban so no elephants would be harmed.

 

Pretty sure the pre-ban elephants wouldn't have agreed with that!

[DarylG]

We are making it all so complicated.  Leave old ivory items in place.  No need to destroy.  Forbid new ivory items from being produced...

 

Agreed, but we've already done that. It will only ever work if every nation does so. You can still freely buy new ivory goods in China.

[DarylG]

I think ivory poaching is a complex issue with no easy solution. The violin trade certainly didn't cause this problem nor will policing the trade be able to fix it. I'd be all for replacing every tip on every bow ever made if I thought it would make even the slightest difference. But of course it won't and droves of people completely ignorant of the situation will still be happily buying tiny elephant figurines carved from ivory. Groups trying to protect the elephants have been doing ad campaigns in China to try to educate the masses that the elephants are in fact killed to remove the tusks. Apparently there is a wide spread belief there that the tusks just fall out. I've become very cynical on this issue and think it's mostly hopeless for the elephants unless things profoundly change in China.