Famous and Historic Fractionals

[Ron MacDonald]

Yes, I've been there and I'm trying to remember the maker--looked on line but so far I've drawn a blank.

[Omobono]

The instrument apparently travels a bit promoting Salzburg as a destination.....

(more so even than its previous child owner) 

 

Andreas Ferdinand Mayer (1735)

 

http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2996362

 

[Omobono]

Tarisio confirms there was a local Salzburg maker of that (or similar) name.

 

Nice to know the Mozart's shopped locally....

 

http://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=911

[nertz]

There was a great exhibition about 20 years ago put together by the Verband Deutscher Geigenbauer und Bogenmacher called  I seem to remember “Kleine Geigen- Grosse Meister” which brought together the biggest gathering of small sized instruments I have ever seen in one place…it included two brothers amati violins, a maggini violin, a Francesco Rugeri violin, two Strads, a Del Gesu, two Guadagnini violins, a Platner violin, an amazingly pure C A Testore violin, and an amazingly pure F Gagliano violin also…there was a whole lot more stuff there also but I will have to hunt out the catalogue to be able to list everything…all I managed to find this morning is some notes I made with the instruments that interested me the most at the time

There is on top of that at least one other small Strad I think in the USA and another in the RNCM collection in Manchester and the amazing little Del Gesù in Japan….so I think its fair to say that it wasn’t totally unusual for the classical Italian makers to maker fractional sized instruments both for smaller people (children) or for specialist pieces such as music written for violin piccolo or dancing masters kits.

neil

[Omobono]

Sheila's Corner relates that Midori played a 3/4 fiddle which she now loans to the Stradivari Society.

 

http://www.sheilascorner.com/midori.html

 

 

(another Maestronet poster suggests it may be a GB Guadagnini)

[Rue]

There was a great exhibition about 20 years ago put together by the Verband Deutscher Geigenbauer und Bogenmacher called  I seem to remember “Kleine Geigen- Grosse Meister” which brought together the biggest gathering of small sized instruments I have ever seen in one place…it included two brothers amati violins, a maggini violin, a Francesco Rugeri violin, two Strads, a Del Gesu, two Guadagnini violins, a Platner violin, an amazingly pure C A Testore violin, and an amazingly pure F Gagliano violin also…there was a whole lot more stuff there also but I will have to hunt out the catalogue to be able to list everything…all I managed to find this morning is some notes I made with the instruments that interested me the most at the time

There is on top of that at least one other small Strad I think in the USA and another in the RNCM collection in Manchester and the amazing little Del Gesù in Japan….so I think its fair to say that it wasn’t totally unusual for the classical Italian makers to maker fractional sized instruments both for smaller people (children) or for specialist pieces such as music written for violin piccolo or dancing masters kits.

neil

That's cool! Other than the catalogue, you'd think someone would have put a book together about them...it would make for quite interesting reading (and think of all the cute photos!)

[nertz]

 

I just found my catalogue....not sure if it is still available to buy anywhere though.

[BassClef]

IMG_0720.JPGIMG_0721.JPG

 

I just found my catalogue....not sure if it is still available to buy anywhere though.

Cool, does it have wonderful pics of each instrument?

If I had cash to let go of I might consider it:

http://www.amatibooks.com/cgi-bin/bookfind.pl?file=14900059

[romberg flat]

This fractional (3/4) violin made by Mathias Thir (“Mathias Thir in Wien, Anno 1787) is part of the holdings of The Museum of Arts and Crafts in Zagreb, Croatia. It is not exposed to the public so I have no photos except that two, old ones.

 

 

 

Mathias Thir was not famous maker like Cremona’s Gods, but the young owner of this violin was very famous in all Europe once. Namely, the violin belonged to Croatian violinist Franjo Krežma (Krezma) whose life was tragically ended in the age of nineteen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franjo_Kre%C5%BEma).

 

 

 

Krežma entered The Vienna Conservatory when was only nine years old, as the youngest student of the Conservatory ever! His student days ended with 13 years and began his spectacular career throughout Europe. As a sixteen lad, Krežma was loved by live audiences in Rome, Prague, Venice, Genoa and Paris. In Genoa, in the age of fifteen, he got to play the Paganini violin (in Museo Municipio, on January 4^th 1877).   At the age of 17 he became the concertmaster in the "Bilse'sche Kapelle", which later in 1885 transformed in today's "Berlin Philharmonic". There he played together with his four years older friend Eugèn Ysaÿe. Up to fatal concert on June 6^th 1881 in Frankfurt, where, playing as soloist, got an ear infection and after only nine days, died.

It was documented that after Krežma’s death two precious violins left; Guarnerius (it is unknown if it was Del Gesù) and Stradivarius.

Adolf Stowasser, Musikinstrumentenbauer from Graz was interested to purchase them, but the sale was never realized. Guarnerius violin bought later in 1884, Johann Müller, Krežma’s colleague from Bilse’s Orchestra and her trace was lost. Stradivarius most likely went to Krežma’s sister and burned down in a fire that occurred in her family house in the early 20th century.

 

I wonder what violin is Krežma holding on this photo?

 

 

 

 

[baroquecello]

Somewhat related: a student of mine is looking to buy a 3/4th cello, and came to the lesson with a fine cello hand made by a respected cello maker from germany. The workmanship was very good. However, the tone, which was a fine tone, was very small, much smaller than the !/2 size cello he currently plays. With an aching heart I had to advise him not to buy that cello, but another one at a third of the price, which didn't have as refined a tone, but was simply much louder, and stands a chance against a piano accompaniment. I wonder why the well made cello had such a small tone....

[Omobono]

Krežma entered The Vienna Conservatory when was only nine years old, as the youngest student of the Conservatory ever! His student days ended with 13 years and began his spectacular career throughout Europe. As a sixteen lad, Krežma was loved by live audiences in Rome, Prague, Venice, Genoa and Paris. In Genoa, in the age of fifteen, he got to play the Paganini violin (in Museo Municipio, on January 4^th 1877).   At the age of 17 he became the concertmaster in the "Bilse'sche Kapelle", which later in 1885 transformed in today's "Berlin Philharmonic". There he played together with his four years older friend Eugèn Ysaÿe. Up to fatal concert on June 6^th 1881 in Frankfurt, where, playing as soloist, got an ear infection and after only nine days, died.

It was documented that after Krežma’s death two precious violins left; Guarnerius (it is unknown if it was Del Gesù) and Stradivarius.

Adolf Stowasser, Musikinstrumentenbauer from Graz was interested to purchase them, but the sale was never realized. Guarnerius violin bought later in 1884, Johann Müller, Krežma’s colleague from Bilse’s Orchestra and her trace was lost. Stradivarius most likely went to Krežma’s sister and burned down in a fire that occurred in her family house in the early 20th century.

 

I wonder what violin is Krežma holding on this photo?

 

franjo krežma.jpg franjo krežma - guarneri.JPG

Fascinating story. Thanks for that.

[Ben Hebbert]

There is an old rumour that the quarter-sized violin gets it's name as a corruption of "quart - violin" i.e. a small violin that played a fourth higher than normal. I'm not convinced of that, but you do find old violins of that size, starting with the 1619 brothers Amati, there are I think three Stradivari examples and two del Gesus. I don't know of any by other Cremonese makers, but I've seen other examples from the 18th century, and I even own a Strad copy which I would like to believe was made by William Forster about 1780 complete (as with the 1619 Amati) with a neck the same length as a full size violin. In 1620 Michael Praetorius included a scale drawing of one of these in Dei Organographia which he described as a Klein Diskant Geige, supporting the idea of a tuning a fourth higher. Incidentally, one of Handel's violin sonatas (I forget which one) seems absolutely definitely to have been written for such a tuning...

 

There are in fact an enormous number of oddly sized Italian instruments. The 1618 Brothers Amati in the Ashmolean is a size smaller than the Cipriani Potter Strad, which is also very small - I think the same size as the RNCM and Belle Skinner (Yale). There was a Ruggeri of about this size in a recent Tarisio auction, and I think I've come across three or four mini Ruggeris in my travels. Then there are the del Gesus and Rogeri's that measure in at 351mm which is still under size, although we tend to ignore them as being small (unless we are buying them). 

 

That's before we even get into cellos - there is a seemingly endless supply of minature Testores, as well as some fairly microscopic Strads. 

 

I may be out of fashion, but I'm inclined to think that immediately defaulting to calling something a 'child's instrument' because it is small, or because you would give it to a child today, is an easy way out of considering uses for these instruments that have gone out of vogue. Of course, they might have been simply that.... In some cases at least, I may be thoroughly overcomplicating the issue.  We don't argue that Long Pattern Strads, and 370mm Magginis were made for giants!!! 

[Omobono]

Ben, Great information.

The 'King Maximilian Joseph' Strad (Length of back: 34.7 cm)

certainly has an impressive provenance.

 

http://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=40080

[Omobono]

There are in fact an enormous number of oddly sized Italian instruments. The 1618 Brothers Amati in the Ashmolean is a size smaller than the Cipriani Potter Strad, which is also very small - I think the same size as the RNCM and Belle Skinner (Yale). There was a Ruggeri of about this size in a recent Tarisio auction, and I think I've come across three or four mini Ruggeris in my travels.

Tarisio.com presents a very smart looking Francesco Ruggieri (Length of back: 32.9 cm).

[Addie]

... In 1620 Michael Praetorius included a scale drawing of one of these in De Organographia which he described as a Klein Diskant Geige, supporting the idea of a tuning a fourth higher. Incidentally, one of Handel's violin sonatas (I forget which one) seems absolutely definitely to have been written for such a tuning...

[baroquecello]

 

That's before we even get into cellos - there is a seemingly endless supply of minature Testores, as well as some fairly microscopic Strads. 

Ben, as a baroque cellist that really interests me. There are many sources that tell us that soloistical playing was done on smaller instruments than accompanieing was. Even Quantz in the 1750ies still sais this is the case. But nobody actually plays these small szed cellos, in fact I've never seen a historical small cello in real life at all. I know the de Munck cello by Strad is a little small, but this sounds as if you are talking about even smaller ones, that is truly interesting! Do you have any examples of such instruments by makers as Testore and Stradivari? Where are they kept? Are technical drawing available somewhere?

[go_oa]

Philip Gold in Houston has modified some existing small instruments to play very well.

 

After struggling with the Violino Piccolo part in Brandenburg One

for our annual Brandenburg Bash, I discovered here on Maestronet,

that the modern incarnation of Violino Piccolo is the the Norwegian

Hardager file.  Or at least that is my conclusion after reading here.

 

There is also the rumor that normal violin training started on a 4/4/ violin

in fifth position, where finger positions are close togeather.

[Omobono]

After struggling with the Violino Piccolo part in Brandenburg One for our annual Brandenburg Bash, 

What was the tuning for the VP you played, I wonder?

Does it vary?

[Ben Hebbert]

Ben, as a baroque cellist that really interests me. There are many sources that tell us that soloistical playing was done on smaller instruments than accompanieing was. Even Quantz in the 1750ies still sais this is the case. But nobody actually plays these small szed cellos, in fact I've never seen a historical small cello in real life at all. I know the de Munck cello by Strad is a little small, but this sounds as if you are talking about even smaller ones, that is truly interesting! Do you have any examples of such instruments by makers as Testore and Stradivari? Where are they kept? Are technical drawing available somewhere?

 

I would certainly look out cellos by Antonio Cassini in Modena from the 1670s/80s, although the ones I've seen have fairly well convinced me that they may have had six-strings (like an Amati viol).. they are on the short side, quite unique to cellos in northern Italy at their time, and I think there may be a tangible link between Cassini as the maker to the ducal court, and the development of the cello under Bononcini (father and son) as the leading cellists of the day. 

 

It's certainly notable in England that small cellos were in vogue for a while, but I think a lot of this has to do with scaling and stringing based on the English bass viol. The William Baker instruments made in Oxford are all small, and up to about 1725 you get small and smaller cellos by Barak Norman and Nathaniel Cross. The tiny ones can be about 65 cm I think. These are very rare. I'm not immedately familiar with examples from other countries, but it's worth knowing that at exactly the same time, you are seeing over-sized cellos also being made - a possible distinction between bass violins and cellos. What I like about the English example is that you can see clear parallels between cellos and bass viols, giving a rationale for why these little ones were made. 

 

The 1732 Josefowitz Stradivari cello is a mere 69cm long! That's a great example of Strad going small... as for the Testore cellos I'm thinking of, I just can't come up with any at this second. But I've seen them... 

 

Here's a 631mm 1724 Barak Norman & Nathaniel Cross... 

 

[Omobono]

I would certainly look out cellos by Antonio Cassini in Modena from the 1670s/80s, 

I now recall Christophe Landon talking up a smallish Cassini cello for sale some years back among a display of other instruments.

[romberg flat]

About viola's dimensions is written tons of texts and small violas are not fractionals, but don’t you think that somehow this thread is incomplete without them.  

So, whether is it someone aware of any historic famous, really small (around 15“) viola?

 

PS. Deep down me hoped that some of experts here would be challenged  to comment the violin at the photos from the bottom of my post # 34. Alas, didn't happened.   Know that it is almost impossible on the old b/w photograph to see any detail, but still? After all it may be Del Gesù or Strad.   

 

[chungviolins]

In 1992, when Sarah Chang was 11 years old, she was looking for a 3/4 sized violin. (She was using a nice Italian 1/2 size violin at the time.)

She was already famous after she debuted with the NY Phil ( Zubin Mehta ) when she was 9 yrs old.

Many dealers all around the world brought 3/4 violins to her but she didn't find one she really liked.

 

At that time Dorothy DeLay was her teacher and she found a old violin in her attic and told her father

that why don't you send this violin to your friend in Chicago and get it fixed?

 

So I got the violin, it was in very good condition about 100-120 yrs old.

It was a typical German violin you would see in any violin shop, not particularly well crafted, but all the measurements were pretty good and so were arch shapes. After measuring top and back thickness I found them too heavy everywhere (not just a little heavy but really heavy).

 

I took them apart and re-graduated top and back, put new bass bar and reset the neck. It was basically a new violin with old wood.

Sarah tried this violin and liked it so much she played it for more than two years until she got her Del Gesu Guarneri ,which she plays now.

 

Sarah made a recording of Tchaikovsky concerto with this violin when she was 12 yrs old. 

(See the pictures, Sarah Chang with the 3/4 violin.))

 

(Prodigy players like Sarah usually play smaller sized violin than theier body size, they wait until it feels really, really small. They don't switch to bigger size prematurely, contrary to common belief.)

 

KY

[Ben Hebbert]

 

About viola's dimensions is written tons of texts and small violas are not fractionals, but don’t you think that somehow this thread is incomplete without them.  

 

So, whether is it someone aware of any historic famous, really small (around 15“) viola?

 

 

PS. Deep down me hoped that some of experts here would be challenged  to comment the violin at the photos from the bottom of my post # 34. Alas, didn't happened.   Know that it is almost impossible on the old b/w photograph to see any detail, but still? After all it may be Del Gesù or Strad.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll make a stab at Franjo Krežma's violin. The closest Strad it could be would probably be early 1680s although the slightly extreme angles of the top of the soundholes would sit better with Francesco Ruggeri (which could have been misattributed as a Strad for all we know). But, I really wouldn't apply any level of certainty to that.

 

There are an inordinate number of small violas from around 1800 including Turin and Neapolitan makers, but I think the origin of these comes from the emergence of the quartet in Northern Europe from the 1770s onwards. I think that any musical gentleman would be buying the latest most fashionable printed music as it came out to be played in his music room, so as soon as  Haydn's quartets became available in print form, such people were forced to buy a viola for the purpose. - inevitably small ones that would be comfortable for a violinist to use. Inevitably, it wasn't so much viola playing as the new found complexity of Haydn't quartets that meant most amateurs would hastily return to playing Corelli trio sonatas instead. The result is hundreds of barely used late-18th-century violas which just remained in the music cupboard for upwards of a century! By the time they were considered for professional use, they already proved 'too small'. 

 

Violas for you - you think the jokes are funny, but inevitably the truth tends to lend to an even more sublime state of ridicule. 

[romberg flat]

I'll make a stab at Franjo Krežma's violin. The closest Strad it could be would probably be early 1680s although the slightly extreme angles of the top of the soundholes would sit better with Francesco Ruggeri (which could have been misattributed as a Strad for all we know). But, I really wouldn't apply any level of certainty to that.

 

There are an inordinate number of small violas from around 1800 including Turin and Neapolitan makers, but I think the origin of these comes from the emergence of the quartet in Northern Europe from the 1770s onwards. I think that any musical gentleman would be buying the latest most fashionable printed music as it came out to be played in his music room, so as soon as  Haydn's quartets became available in print form, such people were forced to buy a viola for the purpose. - inevitably small ones that would be comfortable for a violinist to use. Inevitably, it wasn't so much viola playing as the new found complexity of Haydn't quartets that meant most amateurs would hastily return to playing Corelli trio sonatas instead. The result is hundreds of barely used late-18th-century violas which just remained in the music cupboard for upwards of a century! By the time they were considered for professional use, they already proved 'too small'. 

 

Violas for you - you think the jokes are funny, but inevitably the truth tends to lend to an even more sublime state of ridicule. 

 

So a lot of useless small violas, some of them historical, rest in cupboards, but not a single one is  famous, at least not as famous as violas jokes. What we can do, that’s life. 

 

 

 

Many thanks for your attempt at Krežma’s violin. I know the mission is impossible.

 

Krežma’s short life and tragic end was documented extremely well. His legacy counts more than 3.000 documents; compositions, concert programs, letters etc. all collected by family friend Franjo Kuhač (Osijek 1834 – Zagreb 1911), ethnomusicologist and music historian.

 

In 1889, eight years after Krežma’s death, Kuhač wrote to Stowasser in Graz (ref. post #34) that Guarneri (which was considered better) is already sold (most likely to Johann Müller) and Stradivari is intended for one lady (probably Krežma’s sister Anka, piano player who back him on his concerts).

 

Krežma’s father was a wealthy man and it is quite possible that those two violins were genuine, or at least were considered as such. Also it is documented that after a concert in Padua in January 1876, Krežma was given by one thrilled noble man a precious Cremona’s violin 200 years old.

 

If this two mentioned violins were genuine and where they finished, unfortunately will remain unknown. That’s the sad truth, but that’s life too. 

 

 

 

Jokes aside, truth isn’t always ridiculous …   

 

   

[romberg flat]

Just to complete the story of Krežma. The title could easily be "From fractional violin to Stradivari (or Ruggeri, or Guarneri, or who knows who). Hope I did not too boring, and that language is not a problem.