Maggini scrolls - real and not

[Rue]

I understand that a real Maggini (Giovanni Paolo Maggini (1580 - 1632)) scroll has less than a 'regular' number of turns to the scroll. This is called 1.5 turns.

I understand that at some point there was a misreading of the description of a Maggini scroll which resulted in copies having more than a 'regular' number of turns to the scroll. This is called 4 turns?

What I can't seem to find is when this happened? 1800s? Who was making the copies? The Germans? And how did we come to think that a real Maggini had the incorrect scroll? Too few photos of real ones available to look at in the pre-www era?

And by 'we' I mean the general violin-fan base...not the experts (well, at least I'd hope they'd know )...

The pictures are of a Maggini scroll, a 'fake' Maggini scroll...and a copy of the Plowden scroll for comparison.

[~ Ben Conover]

The 1610 'ex-coates' Maggini viola has a pretty normal scroll, very neat actually.  

Played a nice Maggini fiddle recently, had a huge dark sound and high archings, crude scroll with
one turn less, Ben Hebbert might have some decent photos of it. 
 

[deans]

I believe there is a Maggini violin with a head by Vuillaume (or some other French maker) that has the extra turn in the scroll, in fact I think it was up for auction recently. I wondered at the time if this is where the "extra turn" idea originated. I don't believe any real Maggini (scrolls) have the extra turn.

 

Anyone else know what I'm talking about, or am I mixed up?

[~ Ben Conover]

Anyhow, the extra turn is more work 

[Rue]

I don't mind the extra turn. I just don't fully understand when it all came to be.

It is the result of an 'oopsie'.

I find it funny.

[deans]

I believe the one I was thinking about is 21131 on the Cozio site, but maybe there is another. The Doria has something funky going on too, looks like an extra half turn, maybe that's the one.

[Ben Hebbert]

I wish I could find some pictures, but there are indeed Magginis with the extra turn, but there also Magginis with a fairly normal number of turns and those with a little less... I've seen one of these overdone Maggini's before, but I can't remember where - though I can see that it came as an interesting bolt out of the blue to see that these rather silly scrolls do actually have an ancient president, and weren't just concocted by factory makers.... The one I have is on the side of having too few turns. 

 

The German copyists do seem to get overexcited and over-egg the number of turns though. 

[Omobono]

21131

 

("the head later")

[Omobono]

The Doria

 

 

[Omobono]

Damrasch

 

 

[Rue]

Geez!Just when I think I have a handle on it all - it gets more complicated!

So...Maggini was just experimenting with his scrolls and produced a variety of them.

Does that mean that the story of the misread description is untrue?

[Omobono]

A lot of references to 'later scrolls' 

but not necessarily this one:

 

(Cozio 60249)

(from Vichy Enchères archives)

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

Scrolls on Maggini instruments (sorry, I often don't source photos in my archives unless they are from private collections, e.g. not from public domain websites). The before 1632 instrument is the one in the NMM.

 

Dates:  before 1632 bass and treble, with 1610 sandwiched in between.

[Wm. Johnston]

I can't help but wonder how many of these Magginis with "later scrolls" also happen to have later bodies. Too bad we can't do dendrochronology on maple.

 

So far there are ~9 scrolls pictured and to me it looks like there might be two pairs of scrolls that could be by two different people. The rest just look like random odd scrolls. I like the one in post #12 best whether it has any relationship to the historical Maggini or not.

[Omobono]

So far there are ~9 scrolls pictured and to me it looks like there might be two pairs of scrolls that could be by two different people. The rest just look like random odd scrolls. I like the one in post #12 best whether it has any relationship to the historical Maggini or not.

They certainly present a mixed bag...........

 

This one (Cozio #44831) makes no mention of the scroll in the description.

[~ Ben Conover]

Julian, that 'normal' looking one in the middle looks a tad like that 'ex-coates' 1610 viola. 
 

[martin swan]

Scrolls on Maggini instruments (sorry, I often don't source photos in my archives unless they are from private collections, e.g. not from public domain websites). The before 1632 instrument is the one in the NMM.

 

Dates:  before 1632 bass and treble, with 1610 sandwiched in between.

TBH the left and right shots of the same scroll look like they are from a different maker 

I can see how identifying the genuine article could prove difficult ...

[Omobono]

I can see how identifying the genuine article could prove difficult ...

A GP Maggini genuine in all its parts is seemingly a very elusive animal......?

Previously, perhaps naively I would have thought his scrolls would have had more affinity with those of da Salo.