pahdah_hound Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 It has been mentioned to me by people who usually know, that lot 44 of Skinner's April 2014 sale has been recently certified by a famous London expert as an authentic Joseph Guarnieri del Gesu. I heard the buyer is rather pleased with his purchase. There are dozens of experts who held the violin in their hands who are now scratching their heads. (speaking of heads, I understand that this one is not original). Lot 44 Sale # 2717B Jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 There are dozens of experts who held the violin in their hands who are now scratching their heads. Jesse It's not an effective time travel strategy. But it's a lovely image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Nemessanyi ... there's a name guaranteed to have your violin expert waking in a cold sweat in the middle of the night Like Keyser Soze : "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone." Authentic examples of Nemessanyi are so few and far between, his work is so exquisite and the sound of his instruments so sublime - you have to wonder what he was doing the rest of the time. Still, fortunately these days we have dendro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 ...the buyer is rather pleased with his purchase.... I doubt that the consignor will be very pleased. The catalog says that this violin was from the estate of Victor Aitray (1921-2012), Budapest-born former concertmaster of the Chicago symphony. In a case like this, does the consignor have any recourse against the auction house whose so-called "expert" failed to identify and properly market the violin in a manner for it to sell for its true value? What is the true value of a Del Gesu when no one knows it's a Del Gesu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Well what can you say just from photos...........? Didn't one turn up a year or two back in Argentina as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSchabbon Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 In fact I remember holding that violin in my hands. I guess I missed the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Different story but here's the Argentinian..... http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/guarneri-del-gesu-violin-takes-centre-stage-in-new-buenos-aires-instrument-gallery/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 In fact I remember holding that violin in my hands. I guess I missed the opportunity. Definitely a case of 'slipping through one's fingers'? If someone had wispered to you 'I think it's a Guarneri' what would you have done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSchabbon Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Definitely a case of 'slipping through one's fingers'? If someone had wispered to you 'I think it's a Guarneri' what would you have done? Declared him insane? Or maybe entered a bidding war? No, but seriously, congratulations to the buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not telling Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Someone got fired and probably won't work with good instruments ever again. I just had a moment of silence for that person. Otherwise, this story really made my day. Hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Congratulations to the buyer. It all depends on the authority of one "famous London expert". There are a lot of single attributions surely that are in dispute. But the OP's info seems fairly firm, I take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 ...the OP's info seems fairly firm, I take it? I think so. Jesse told me this story yesterday, and it was at my suggestion that he posted about it here. Without revealing them, I will say that his sources are very good. I expect that some mention of this will appear in The Strad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassClef Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 I wonder if the buyer "knew" or strongly suspected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Brown Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Wow, I have noticed that Tarisio among others has had instruments up for auction that had certificates from really famous shops and authorities that they did not believe were correct. They listed an instrument only as "ascribed to" and not "by" DLB Lucky violin buyer BTW! He is a millionaire now! http://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198159360&cpid=2967994368&filter_key=ca30c93c05cd9eaa36e0785b3b4fb244&sCategory_ID=36 This one I think there were others http://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198159360&cpid=2398191616&filter_key=30615f9085be68773065fd685a403658 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will L Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Interesting that even for a Nemessanyi the selling price was low. It's comical if they couldn't make a sufficient case for it's being a Nemessanyi because it wasn't, so then it sells for even less. If they had even listed it as "ascribed to dG" it might have gone for a lot more than $14,000; and I think the label alone would have allowed the use of that term. The fact that it belonged to Aitay should have meant something in itself, too. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-24/entertainment/ct-ent-0725-victor-aitay-obit-20120725_1_cso-concertmaster-victor-aitay-samuel-magad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 A Nemessanyi (Strad model) just sold at Bromptons for over £45K on an estimate of £8-12K ... I thought £45K was cheap! I think there's a lot of speculation here, and in the absence of hard facts, the less said the better. A violin may well be certified as a del Gesu (or part del Gesu), but until the thing is sold as a del Gesu the owner is not a millionaire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBouquet Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 I wonder what Victor Aitay thought it was. Were there documents from his acquisition of it? How did he insure it over the years that he owned it? Could there have been something illicit in the history of this instrument that made it necessary to be quiet about its origins? I'm recalling the story of Huberman's "Gibson" Strad, that was possessed under cover for years by that nightclub violinist who swiped it. I'm not doubting this story, but it seems pretty far fetched nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Appleman Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 This makes me think of a story I heard many years ago which I was never able to confirm, but it seemed plausible. At the time a DG was "only" worth about a million or so, and a "friend of a friend of a friend" apparently brought a fiddle to one of the biggest experts of the time, and was told something like, "yes, it's a Del Gesu, but NO I will not write you a certificate. You can't afford the cost of the certificate, and until I write one, your violin is only worth a few thousand (this was around 25-30 years ago). I'll buy it from you for 20k, and that's the best offer you'll get." The violinist took it around to several other experts, and in the end, the 20k was the best he could do. Of course, this could be an urban legend, but the way things worked in the fiddle business back then, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen as I heard it. I'm still not 100% sure someone who is not a known member of the trade can walk into a big expert's place and get a top fiddle certified. I have personally had experiences where top experts gave me a different response on fiddles and bows when they barely knew me compared to after they got to know me years later. I still have an interesting "set" of certificates from the same expert for the same bow, which somehow changed from a François Peccatte when I brought it in (many years ago, before the expert got to know me), into a Dominique Peccatte a few weeks later when a dealer who had it on consignment brought it in. Not a drastic difference perhaps, but interesting how that could happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiingfiddler Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Interesting that even for a Nemessanyi the selling price was low. It's comical if they couldn't make a sufficient case for it's being a Nemessanyi because it wasn't, so then it sells for even less. If they had even listed it as "ascribed to dG" it might have gone for a lot more than $14,000; and I think the label alone would have allowed the use of that term. The fact that it belonged to Aitay should have meant something in itself, too. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-24/entertainment/ct-ent-0725-victor-aitay-obit-20120725_1_cso-concertmaster-victor-aitay-samuel-magad Those are my thoughts exactly. For me, this just confirms that buying based on provenance is a game and isn't worth doing. Pay for a fiddle based on it being a good or bad one in terms of tone, construction and condition, not what the experts think its provenance is. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow the provenance of this instrument reverts back to not a del Gesu, maybe not even a Nemessanyi, and the fiddle goes from a value of a few million to a few ten thousand, all because of what someone said and not what the fiddle is. Thanks for the link to Aitay's obituary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiingfiddler Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 This makes me think of a story I heard many years ago which I was never able to confirm, but it seemed plausible. At the time a DG was "only" worth about a million or so, and a "friend of a friend of a friend" apparently brought a fiddle to one of the biggest experts of the time, and was told something like, "yes, it's a Del Gesu, but NO I will not write you a certificate. You can't afford the cost of the certificate, and until I write one, your violin is only worth a few thousand (this was around 25-30 years ago). I'll buy it from you for 20k, and that's the best offer you'll get." The violinist took it around to several other experts, and in the end, the 20k was the best he could do. Of course, this could be an urban legend, but the way things worked in the fiddle business back then, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen as I heard it. I'm still not 100% sure someone who is not a known member of the trade can walk into a big expert's place and get a top fiddle certified. I have personally had experiences where top experts gave me a different response on fiddles and bows when they barely knew me compared to after they got to know me years later. I still have an interesting "set" of certificates from the same expert for the same bow, which somehow changed from a François Peccatte when I brought it in (many years ago, before the expert got to know me), into a Dominique Peccatte a few weeks later when a dealer who had it on consignment brought it in. Not a drastic difference perhaps, but interesting how that could happen! Thanks, Michael, This further confirms my skepticism of opinions on provenance. If this fiddle does get accepted in the trade as a del Gesu, it will be interesting to see what year is ascribed to it. I can't imagine that a fiddle could be called a del Gesu and not being placed in a certain del Gesu period. Then, since some del Gesu periods are worth more than others, we could watch the debate over that, if we were allowed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 This one (Busan) I think there were others http://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198159360&cpid=2398191616&filter_key=30615f9085be68773065fd685a403658 Busan labelled instruments seem to be particularly prone to controversy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 For my taste there are too many unnamed people "who usually know", anonymous experts, famous or unfamous, not at least a mysterious buyer, and a bit too much malice in the OP here. But who knows? Let's wait for some facts, maybe it will become some fun for the lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Just hypothetically were it to be the genuine article where might it fit into the del Gesu corpus?The "f"s would come close to the 1743 Baron Heath and avoid the extremes of other late instrumentsbut the head is another matter..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Nemessanyi copied some Stradivari and Guarneri models so perfectly, that many from his unlabeled and unbranded instruments are in circulation and sold as 'original Italian instruments'. Due to this fact, we only know about a relatively small number of instruments as being personally made by himself ..." Peter Benedek, Violin Makers of Hungary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Tarisio.com suggests: A skilled copyist of Stradivari and Guarneri, Nemessanyi's unlabeled instruments were often later falsely identified as Italian, and his own work in turn has been extensively forged. In certain periods he also refinished manufactured Bohemian instruments, which bear the labels of the factories. Thus, known examples of his original work are rather rare, perhaps numbering around 70 in total. After 1863 they usually bear printed labels, and very occasionally a brand. The materials are superb, and workmanship is precise and personal. Worst case scenario: probably still a reasonable deal with a bit of provenance and a lot of talking points. Best case.......................? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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