Willow or poplar for small viola back?

[DGV]

I am about to get started on making a small viola (15.5").

 

I am wondering what differences there are between using poplar and willow for the back. Any insight is greatly appreciated. 

[uncle duke]

The poplar we have in the plains states {U.S.} is a very unstable wood.  It always moves.

[Jim Bress]

For poplar, the use of the common name may lead to misunderstandings.  In the U. S. lumber labeled poplar usually refers to tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera), which is unrelated to poplar species of the Populus Genus e.g. white poplar (Populus alba), black poplar (Populus nigra), aspen (Populus tremula) etc.

 

-Jim

[kevin Prestwich]

I can't give you a clear answer but one thing I can agree with is that there is so much misinformation and mislabeling of Poplar that it boggles the mind. Lot's of what people call Poplar are actually more closely related to Cottonwood trees and are very soft and pulpy. I recently cut some Lombardy Poplar and it seemed to be much more dense and hard. I wish I could help more.

[not telling]

My husband made Lombardy poplar violas and cellos and English willow cellos. He likes those woods... both for typically being less dense (than maple), and the great tonal qualities. I think poplar can look more stunning than maple under varnish, but willow is nice too.

[David in NC]

Some characteristics of American woods, just for reference.  We have lots of Sycamore in the neighborhood, and its tempting, has anyone had experience with Sycamore, which is less dense than maple?

 

 http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

[Melvin Goldsmith]

There are numerous species of willow and poplar and hybrids.,,,,Just choose something that looks stable and make your viola.  It should work

[Ken_N]

Some characteristics of American woods, just for reference.  We have lots of Sycamore in the neighborhood, and its tempting, has anyone had experience with Sycamore, which is less dense than maple?

 

 http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

I made a couple violins out of Sycamore.  I think that it is very resonate, and nice looking wood.  It would probably make a better viola, unless you can find a really stiff piece.  It seems to be slightly more flexible, but it is twice as stiff as Black Willow on the chart.  I have some Poplar, (populus) and it rings like crazy, but I don't know if it is as complex.  I don't know if that matters, but that always gets my attention.  I'll have to make a viola back and find out.

Ken

[~ Ben Conover]

Flamed willow is nice for a change.

[nathan slobodkin]

I've made a lot of instruments from both willow and poplar. There is a great deal of variation in both these woods and as several people have mentioned lots of different kinds and confusing nomenclature. I tend to like willow over any of the American poplars because there is often some very nice figure in willow particularly sprays of small birdseye type knots that can be very pretty. Both black willow (salix nigra) and weeping willow(sailx babylonica) can have these and they both make good instruments.The weeping willow is sometimes absurdly light weight and should be left very thick in the center as much as twice as thick as maple while the black willow and the poplars are somewhere in between. Lombardy poplar is hard to come by around here and I don't have much experience with it.

[Jose Catoira]

I am just making a 15 5-8" viola, second one I make with poplar from a tree a bought some years back.

 

It takes a bit of getting used to the different feel under the tool, arches and graduation also have to be thought of differently,

the first one was a succesful instrument, I am hoping the second one will be as nice. 

 

Looks superb under varnish. 

[Randall The Restorer]

Eastern White Pine Pinus strobus lumber has slightly superior vital statistics (as per The Wood Database) as compared to Black Willow Salix nigra. The two are comparable as tonewoods (Please read on).

The wood of Pinus strobus can be resonant with a wide range of tonality and degree of sustain. 

Mature wild Pinus strobus trees are large, straight, and tall. With a large natural growing range, growth rates, densities and stiffness can vary. The wood hardens when seasoned properly for a sufficient duration. Eastern White Pine lumber was used for centuries by the Royal Navy for the masts and spars on warships, and for planking ship's boats. It was widely used for heavy-duty furniture by pioneer settlers in Ontario, Quebec and The Maritimes. 

As a tonewood, Pinus strobus is overlooked, unappreciated, underutilized. (which makes it extra good for violas). Since most Eastern White Pines grow in Canada you should expect that it is a friendly, helpful tree and timber with few vices and unassuming beauty. And it smells good.

The wood of Pinus strobus can be resonant with a wide range of tonality and degree of sustain. I have plates that when tapped ring like silver bells and others that coo like mourning doves.

With a supply of boards/billets from different trees, I believe you can build an excellent instrument entirely from Pinus strobus (minus fb, bridge , etc.).

I have a supply of lonely, well-seasoned, Pinus strobus lumber just waiting to have its singing voice set free. Dear open-minded luthier, won't you please help? Any instrument you make will be greatly appreciated. Don't wait. Call now. Operators are standing by. (well at least one is sitting around).

This was message was generously underwritten by Randy O'Malley.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Randall The Restorer
correct spelling

[nathan slobodkin]

6 hours ago, Randall The Restorer said:

Eastern White Pine Pinus strobus lumber has slightly superior vital statistics (as per The Wood Database) as compared to Black Willow Salix nigra. The two are comparable as tonewoods (Please read on).

The wood of Pinus strobus can be resonant with a wide range of tonality and degree of sustain. 

Mature wild Pinus strobus trees are large, straight, and tall. With a large natural growing range, growth rates, densities and stiffness can vary. The wood hardens when seasoned properly for a sufficient duration. Eastern White Pine lumber was used for centuries by the Royal Navy for the masts and spars on warships, and for planking ship's boats. It was widely used for heavy-duty furniture by pioneer settlers in Ontario, Quebec and The Maritimes. 

As a tonewood, Pinus strobus is overlooked, unappreciated, underutilized. (which makes it extra good for violas). Since most Eastern White Pines grow in Canada you should expect that it is a friendly, helpful tree and timber with few vices and unassuming beauty. And it smells good.

The wood of Pinus strobus can be resonant with a wide range of tonality and degree of sustain. I have plates that when tapped ring like silver bells and others that coo like mourning doves.

With a supply of boards/billets from different trees, I believe you can build an excellent instrument entirely from Pinus strobus (minus fb, bridge , etc.).

I have a supply of lonely, well-seasoned, Pinus strobus lumber just waiting to have its singing voice set free. Dear open-minded luthier, won't you please help? Any instrument you make will be greatly appreciated. Don't wait. Call now. Operators are standing by. (well at least one is sitting around).

This was message was generously underwritten by Randy O'Malley.

 

Comparing white pine to willow for use in musical instrument backs is absurd. If you did use it you certainly couldn't sell the instrument and might get locked up in your local loony bin. As to how it would sound? I don't know. Call me from the loony bin and let me know.

[Randall The Restorer]

11 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Comparing white pine to willow for use in musical instrument backs is absurd. If you did use it you certainly couldn't sell the instrument and might get locked up in your local loony bin. As to how it would sound? I don't know. Call me from the loony bin and let me know.

Mr. Slobodkin,

Your reply is useless and abusive. I'm surprised the moderator approved it. Why are you being so narrow-minded and mean-spirited?

I consider your repeated use of the phrase "loony bin" to be hate speech.

May you receive better treatment from others the next time you suggest trying something new or different.

Respectfully yours,

Randy O'Malley

 

 

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, Randall The Restorer said:

Mr. Slobodkin,

Your reply is useless and abusive. I'm surprised the moderator approved it. Why are you being so narrow-minded and mean-spirited?

I consider your repeated use of the phrase "loony bin" to be hate speech.

May you receive better treatment from others the next time you suggest trying something new or different.

Respectfully yours,

Randy O'Malley

 

 

Randy,

Lighten up buddy! My tongue in cheek response was in no way hateful. As I said I cannot imagine any one buying a violin with a white pine back. On the other hand if you felt like trying it I'd be happy to hear what  it sounds like because tradition is not always based on logic.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Oh for heaven's sake. Randall just suggested using Eastern White Pine (beautiful tree when huge but a Charly Brown Christmas tree when little) for a viola back.  Get a grip: it's a viola not a violin and nobody knows what it's supposed to sound like anyway.

[Randall The Restorer]

On 2/17/2020 at 8:14 PM, nathan slobodkin said:

Randy,

Lighten up buddy! My tongue in cheek response was in no way hateful. As I said I cannot imagine any one buying a violin with a white pine back. On the other hand if you felt like trying it I'd be happy to hear what  it sounds like because tradition is not always based on logic.

Consider the impact of the words you type on the people who might read them. I'm new here and we don't know each other from Adam. 

Carefully reread your original message to me and Google the definition of "loony bin".  Twice, you suggested I was mentally ill. How is that in any way funny?

I don't need to lighten up. I've got a healthy, gentle sense of humour. It's evident in my posts. You need to work on your material and your delivery. The Don Rickles style is out.

Bottom Line: If you can't write something nice, don't write anything at all.  

[Jeffrey Holmes]

OK.  Why don't we just get back to the subject of the OP's post...

[violguy]

Randy,I am interested in buying some of your N.White Pine(Pinus strobus) as I have two viols in process and would like to experiment with something other than Spruce for the tops. PM me with prices and info.

Thanx!

[Randall The Restorer]

23 hours ago, violguy said:

Randy,I am interested in buying some of your N.White Pine(Pinus strobus) as I have two viols in process and would like to experiment with something other than Spruce for the tops. PM me with prices and info.

Thanx!

That's terrific, Violguy. Give me several days to get the wood from storage. Remind me if you don't here from me.

Randy, out.

 

 

[David Beard]

However, any softwood for a violin family back remains "contrary to tradition".  Poplar or willow can be great.

[HoGo]

On 3/12/2015 at 12:30 PM, DGV said:

I am about to get started on making a small viola (15.5").

 

I am wondering what differences there are between using poplar and willow for the back. Any insight is greatly appreciated. 

Viola? Which of the woods burns longer? :-)

I think the difference between wood of european willows and poplars can be really small. Often it is hard to distinguish which as used. I personally would be tempted to use some nice curly aspen I've seen. I've also seen nice curly goat willow (salix caprea) trees close to my home.

[Jim Bress]

I have thee groups of Salix alba. Cello rib stock being downgraded to lining material because they have an SG = 0.29, they also feel rather floppy.  Cello sized block and linings SG =  0.41 - 0.46.  A one piece cello back with an SG = 0.59.  I think this is pretty high variation within a single species, and a small sample size.

[MANFIO]

I've made small, 15.5 violas with slab cut American red maple, it can be softer and lighter than european maple.

[Randall The Restorer]

On 2/17/2020 at 7:20 AM, nathan slobodkin said:

Comparing white pine to willow for use in musical instrument backs is absurd. If you did use it you certainly couldn't sell the instrument and might get locked up in your local loony bin. As to how it would sound? I don't know. Call me from the loony bin and let me know.

Nathan,

I snuck past the guards and nurses to get to an internet cafe to post this.  I'm Canadian so please spell it "Loonie". And next time use an emoji (I just learned how myself).

I just measured my flat-sawn, old growth Eastern White Pine and its density is 480kg/m3 or 29.95 lb/ft3.

Average willow density is 25 lbs/ft3. Average Lombardy Poplar is 24lbs/ft3.

This Pinus strobus is also slightly harder and stiffer than any willow I have come across. It rings like a brass bell with just the right amount of sustain for a one-piece back.  After 50 years of seasoning in an Ontario, Canada garage it is the colour of malt whisky or coffee with just a little cream. I'll start a new thread and post pictures when I have a chance.

I better get back before they notice I'm gone.  I don't want to miss breakfast - it's International Pancake Day and I'm supplying the real maple syrup. 

Cheers,

Randy O'Malley