Stiff arm staccato?

[DGV]

If I recall correctly, Milstein did not perform the staccato though I'm sure he had it since according to the biography, he could play Paganini 24 caprices when he was young.

[uncle duke]

I believe that anyone with a good right hand can learn the bow stroke, I just think that the knowledge of the technique is kind of lost. I've been trying to learn the stiff arm staccato for months, and out of all the people I've asked no one even had a clue where to start. I hope someone on here knows how to execute this technique because i'll die before i stop trying.

I hope somebody knows too.  Lately, I have been trying to hang with a piano/violin version of O. Rieding Op. 21 Hungarian.  The violin player is a real fine player.  Towards the last 3rd of the piece there's a measure or two that one will have to utilize a flying staccato of some sorts.  I'm sure he resorted to it to be able to keep up with the piano.  My only chance for success will be to learn the technique or all will fall apart.  Please help.

[RyanJ]

In over 45 years of being around violins and players I met maybe 3 people who could do a lightning fast, full bow staccato and maybe 5 people who could do a proper fast trill. But I met a lot of people who could play beautifully. To my mind, these are gimmicks,

and it took a good while to bring all the elements of the technique "on line" so to speak. Lots of time wasted for musically insignificant effect. Myself, if I could still play violin I'd rather use the time to play beautiful music with good tone, rhythm and intonation and I'd stay away from technical gimmicks seldom used. 

 

""I hope someone on here knows how to execute this technique because i'll die before i stop trying.""

 

Listen to Oistrakh - wasn't he a GREAT violin player ? He had neither staccato nor trill and nobody worried.

 

In the video of Heifetz playing Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, does it not sound different than anything you've ever heard before? Of course it does; he had completely mastered violin technique and was able to utilize these "gimmicks" to create such an amazing performance.  Sure he didn't have to play the D an octave higher when he cues the orchestra or did he have to play a down bow staccato in the cadenza nor did he have to play the "perfect trills", but these small "gimmicks"  allowed him to create such a memorable performance. The saying goes, perfection is getting all the little things right. Oistrakh played a pretty mean Tchaikovsky, but do you think it was as original/memorable as Heifetz? If so what differentiated his sound from everyone else?

[Carl Stross]

In the video of Heifetz playing Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, does it not sound different than anything you've ever heard before? Of course it does; he had completely mastered violin technique and was able to utilize these "gimmicks" to create such an amazing performance.  Sure he didn't have to play the D an octave higher when he cues the orchestra or did he have to play a down bow staccato in the cadenza nor did he have to play the "perfect trills", but these small "gimmicks"  allowed him to create such a memorable performance. The saying goes, perfection is getting all the little things right. Oistrakh played a pretty mean Tchaikovsky, but do you think it was as original/memorable as Heifetz? If so what differentiated his sound from everyone else?

 

Myself don't find Heifetz' Tchaikovsky that memorable or original. It's fast and clean and moviesh but musically, in my book, doesn't come close to Oistrakh' rendition. It's neither as musical nor as energetic - Oistrakh is a force of nature. I'm not a Heifetz fan and I am not particularly fond of his sound. GREAT player, superb in certain repertoire, but not the ultimate answer on "how violin she should be played", at least not for everybody. I wouldn't use Heifetz as an example of how to do staccato by the way. And I really know what I am talking about.  This is not to criticize Heifetz - I think he's done great in what was probably the toughest period for an up and coming player, cut through all the noise and left an indelible mark. 

[Stephen Fine]

This is what I was taught, and it worked for me:

 

There is a change in the technique at a certain speed.  Just about anyone can play slurred staccato sixteenth notes at quarter note = 80-90 (a la Kreutzer #2).  For that stroke to be elegant, the wrist and fingers are of primary importance.  But then, somewhere around 115 bpm, the stroke is more commonly executed by using the elbow/forearm, with little finger/wrist involvement, even some tension in those smaller joints.  Assume a Russian-y bow grip, tense the bicep, and focus on the release rather than the stop.  Practice and derring-do are all that remain.

 

The Heifetz video is a prime example example of the method I was taught and the changing grip.  For his upbow staccato, he can lean into the stick with all four fingers to help carry the stroke towards the frog (but, you notice, the fingers are inactive).  And the downbow staccato is very interesting, I don't think I ever tried it like that which is probably why I failed.  It looks to me like he is using a strong pressure between his thumb and index finger while the other fingers are now completely inactive, holding no tension.  His arm is so smooth!

 

[RyanJ]

This is what I was taught, and it worked for me:

 

There is a change in the technique at a certain speed.  Just about anyone can play slurred staccato sixteenth notes at quarter note = 80-90 (a la Kreutzer #2).  For that stroke to be elegant, the wrist and fingers are of primary importance.  But then, somewhere around 115 bpm, the stroke is more commonly executed by using the elbow/forearm, with little finger/wrist involvement, even some tension in those smaller joints.  Assume a Russian-y bow grip, tense the bicep, and focus on the release rather than the stop.  Practice and derring-do are all that remain.

 

The Heifetz video is a prime example example of the method I was taught and the changing grip.  For his upbow staccato, he can lean into the stick with all four fingers to help carry the stroke towards the frog (but, you notice, the fingers are inactive).  And the downbow staccato is very interesting, I don't think I ever tried it like that which is probably why I failed.  It looks to me like he is using a strong pressure between his thumb and index finger while the other fingers are, again, inactive.  His arm is so smooth!

 

Thanks for the response! So, to do the stroke do you have to tense up the bicep or the whole arm down to the fingers? I'm also having trouble finding the release. What are the methods to practice this? 

[Stephen Fine]

Thanks for the response! So, to do the stroke do you have to tense up the bicep or the whole arm down to the fingers? I'm also having trouble finding the release. What are the methods to practice this? 

 

I feel both my bicep and brachioradialis as the points of tension, and I suppose the fingers are also tense, although it feels more like they're stiff than tense.  I'm not sure if that distinction is helpful.  But the fingers remain immobile, while the bicep/brachioradialis release.

 

As for how to practice:  additively.  First, make sure you can do Kreutzer No. 2 slurring 8 staccato notes at 100 bpm.  The techniques are different, but they are related.  If you can't do this (yet), you shouldn't (yet) be working on the virtuosic variety.  Assuming you already have an excellent staccato and control over your legato, and collé:

 

Try for 4 slurred staccato.  Fast.  There's no point in trying this at 115 bpm, head straight for 130 or 140 bpm.  At first, they will come in stutters, uneven and unreliable.  Try for 8 slurred staccato, but keep trying for 4 as well.  And as you try for 12, also keep trying for 4 and 8.  And then make sure you're also trying for 3, 6, 9, and 15.   At first, try on a single pitch.  Then do scalar passages.  

 

I found upbow staccato pretty easy, but I never got a good downbow staccato.

 

Basically, I was told what I've told you.  It was demonstrated for me.  And then I was sent to experiment and practice.  As you have been advised, this isn't a particularly important bow stroke, but it is a cool effect, and if you want it, go for it.

[uncle duke]

Thanks Mr. Fine for the Kreutzer page tip.   Does it matter which bow stroke to start out with?   Naturally it feels a down bow would be the way to start.  I guess starting up bow would offer another version. 

[Stephen Fine]

I would start with both of them, but spending more time on downbow might be a good idea since it is the more troublesome.

 

It is often said here, but I'll repeat:  internet advice is no substitute for a good live teacher.  The problem is with proprioception.  A live teacher can help you correct errors in your perception and point you in the right direction faster than I can online.

[uncle duke]

Thanks Stephen

[DR. S]

You're probably right Carl, but is it would just be so cool to be able to do it.  Its about having fun.

[Stephen Fine]

Here's a great video of James Ehnes displaying style, as usual:

 

 

His upbow staccato has the same straight-fingered approach that I've described and that Jascha demonstrated, but notice that for his downbow staccato, he utilizes middle finger unlike Maestro Heifetz.

 

Or there is this live recital bootleg by Ning Feng.  I'm not always sure about his intonation, but his bow arm is pretty darn exciting.  It's hard to see much of a difference between his grip for upbow and downbow staccato.  My intuition says he's doing it with his index finger like Heifetz:

 

 

And then there's my favorite recording (no video ):

 

 

What a MASTER.  Also, Slatkin and the orchestra are perfect.

[Will L]

I was listening to a few of the examples offered here and I remembered a line that Isaac Stern once delivered at a seminar:  "You either have it or you don't."  He was talking about something else, but it DOES beg the question.

 

It got me wondering.  I'm going to predict that if we were able to ask all the people who can do this bowing at least as well as Heifetz or Ehnes, that we would find most of them—probably all of them—picked up the bowing relatively quickly.

 

And correspondingly,  I'd like to know if anyone knows of ANYONE who claims to have struggled for years and years, but FINALLY got it to the same level as the above examples.

 

In other words, I predict that if you don't get it within a short while, ten-twenty-or thirty years of trying isn't going to help.  Hope I'm wrong, of course!    

[RyanJ]

I was listening to a few of the examples offered here and I remembered a line that Isaac Stern once delivered at a seminar:  "You either have it or you don't."  He was talking about something else, but it DOES beg the question.

 

It got me wondering.  I'm going to predict that if we were able to ask all the people who can do this bowing at least as well as Heifetz or Ehnes, that we would find most of them—probably all of them—picked up the bowing relatively quickly.

 

And correspondingly,  I'd like to know if anyone knows of ANYONE who claims to have struggled for years and years, but FINALLY got it to the same level as the above examples.

 

In other words, I predict that if you don't get it within a short while, ten-twenty-or thirty years of trying isn't going to help.  Hope I'm wrong, of course!    

From what I've heard, even Heifetz had a bit of trouble with the staccato.

 

Anatomically,  I don't think there is a staccato muscle that only certain people have; rather a muscle that needs to be strengthened (remember the moment when your vibrato, bow hand, etc. "clicked"?). The violin is not voodoo. Considering this, you probably have to get the basics down to exercise the correct muscles, and  the people who got the the technique right away already had these muscles strengthened. As Heifetz said, you have to be mentally persistent. The violin is supposed to be hard, yet the tension created through your struggle is the reason it's such a powerful instrument.

Edited March 4, 2015 by SailZStarZ

[Will L]

From what I've heard, even Heifetz had a bit of trouble with the staccato.

 

 Considering this, you probably have to get the basics down to exercise the correct muscles, and  the people who got the the technique right away already had these muscles strengthened. 

The first sentence doesn't answer my question, though.  Or maybe you could be more specific.  Did he have problems learning it or problems maintaining it;  or problems with consistency?

 

But your second point might lead to something.  Maybe the development of other bowings might help.  After all, somewhere someone invented this bowing; surely it didn't come first in some violinist's arsenal. And it might have sprung forth from some bowing like martele, for example.

[DR. S]

Put your bent right arm on a table in front of you, flex the musicles and make your hand shake or vibrate. That is the fundamental stiff arm stacatto. The rest is speed and control (thus the varying styles of grip changes - gotta find what works).  The limting factor is how fast you can make the hand shake.  Rememer the stacatto speed is only half the hand vibration - the fwd or backward part of the motion depending if you are doing upbow or downbow.    I don't think many people can do it very fast this way.

Using the 'tremolo' method is also difficult because the tremolo has to be twice as fast as the speed of the staccato.  So to get the 136 that Heifetz plays Horra Staccato, you have to tremolo or vibrate that hand at 272 up and down motions a minute or 4.5 per second.  Sounds do-able, but I can't quite get there with control and bite. 

 

I worry about tendonitis with the tension method, but it seems to be the method most have success with. 

[RyanJ]

Ahh, I may have it. When you do this you must grip the frog correct?

[Stephen Fine]

Yes.  I feel tension all the way down to my fingers.

[Omobono]

Another piece I remember learning and struggling with the staccato was the A Major Polonaise Brillante of Wieniawski.

Admittedly  not as extended as the Hora Staccato but recurring a number of times through the piece.

 

Someone might find another performance by a (to me) more familiar artist? 

 

[Omobono]

Now this sounds convincing or what?

(Pity we don't have the vision to go with the audio)

 

 

(Oscar Schumsky)

 

 

 

 

[uncle duke]

The third from the last measure- would you use the first string or third string?

[Carl Stross]

Now this sounds convincing or what?

 

 

 

 

 

It does. But this one is way better :   :)

 

[Omobono]

It does. But this one is way better :   :)

No argument there. An incredible player.

His recording of the Rode Etudes played on the Rode Strad is also worth a listen.

[gwie]

Try Heifetz's somewhat crazy-looking-but-extremely-effective bow hold for a down bow staccato. I had a tough time with it until I tried that hand shape, AND rolled the stick TOWARDS me (instead of away like we all usually play).

 

When students ask me to show them how to do it, this is pretty effective...and once we do it, I then say "well, that's great, since you're working on Bach and Mozart right now, can we get back to shaping phrases in an intelligent way?"