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Don Noon

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Only if you want to move up the A0 frequency to the open D string and make it loud.  I don't; A0 at C# is where most musicians expect to find it.

 

I'm wondering if the long pattern could be generally louder because it might need longer ff-holes?  And the bigger body keeps A0 at C# even with the longer ff-holes?  Wonder if the same applies to the mezzo violin.

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Don, did you end up making a small viola?  I seem to remember reading a thread about your design.

 

Yes: http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329145-don-noons-bench/?p=645411

Happy to report that it sold instantly.

 

I'm wondering if the long pattern could be generally louder because it might need longer ff-holes?  And the bigger body keeps A0 at C# even with the longer ff-holes?  Wonder if the same applies to the mezzo violin.

 

Remember we are ONLY talking about the A0 resonance, which only is important for a few notes on the lower strings.  It doesn't do anything for the rest of the spectrum.  

And there are other factors that enter into A0 amplitude other than soundhole size/shape.

But, all else being equal (which it never is), a larger body with larger/longer soundholes to keep A0 frequency constant, should have a stronger A0... if that's a good thing.

I think it's not only possible to have A0 too strong, but that A0 is just a small factor in the overall tonal quality of an instrument.

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Handy having junkers around for testing.

attachicon.gif150322 Soundhole experiment.jpg

 

 

One problem is that it becomes too easy to just do "one more test", and you never get around to making the real ones.  Oh, well.

 

Just one more test...

 

Having assembled my latest real violin (#18), from completely natural, unprocessed wood, and liking it a lot, and not liking the low/broad arching test of the low density Sitka test fiddle, I got thinking more about arching.  I messed around with some calculations of arching stiffness vs frequency, based on "ring mode" formulas, came up with some numbers for curvature in various places that I thought might work, and started carving up a new top for the pictured VSO.  I had a set from the same log of low-density Sitka, with nearly identical processing and final properties, so this seemed like a good comparison.

 

After roughing it out to the radius templates, I realized that it was coming out almost identical to the top on my #18, which was a slightly modified version of the Jackson Strad arching.  Hmmm...  no, I'm not going to say "Aha!  Strad's Secret!"... as experience has taught me that the sequence goes:  theory => experment => unexpected results.

 

But, in any case this should be interesting to see what the differences are.  Same wood, different arching; one very broad, all-convex, gentle curvature, and the other maximizing the curvature toward the middle, primarily in the upper bout, with some recurve at the crossarch edges.

 

Expected result:  stronger high frequencies with perhaps a sharper dropoff above 4kHz, weaker in the 1kHz range (that sounds like the description of the Strad sound, huh?)  We'll see in another day or two.

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Well... this should be interesting, at least.  I'm at 56.3g on my new top (F's cut, ~3mm avg. thickness, 2 coats of ground) and the taptones are higher than anything else in my database.  By a lot.  M5 is currently 368 Hz without the bass bar.

 

I guess I'll just keep thinning until I get below 350Hz or 50g, whichever comes first.  Unless I feel like going further.

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I'm stopping thinning now; I can always thin it more later, if needed.

 

Top plate, ready for fitting the bar (has F-holes and 2 thin coats of ground):

 

52.6g, taptones of 84, 149, and 355 Hz for M1,2, and 5.   This is close to the lightest plate I've ever made, and it has a much higher M5 taptone than anything I've made.

 

The plate is standard-ish Strad size, 355x207, with medium-low arching at 15.6mm

 

Wood:  very low density Sitka, heavy thermal processing,  .33 density, 5772 m/s speed of sound (RR=17.5 for anyone who likes those numbers), and crossgrain speed of sound is relatively high at 1769 m/s.  Also very high Q (186).

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I am not sure if I can call myself a plate tuner.  But anyway, I'm hoping if someone could point me towards how I could deepen the sound on the D and A strings just a bit without changing (much) the rest of the violin by "tuning" the top plate.  My top plate is sitting at 62g with bar and M5 is 370Hz.  It's almost 2.7mm everywhere.  Suggestions and insights are welcome.

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I am not sure if I can call myself a plate tuner.  But anyway, I'm hoping if someone could point me towards how I could deepen the sound on the D and A strings just a bit without changing (much) the rest of the violin by "tuning" the top plate.  My top plate is sitting at 62g with bar and M5 is 370Hz.  It's almost 2.7mm everywhere.  Suggestions and insights are welcome.

If you need insights PM me

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Don,

Admit it you are a tuner, there is no point of denying ;)

 

Everyone has to have some way to decide when to stop removing wood.

I think a "tuner" would have a specific numerical target of some sort... a ratio of taptones, or massxtaptone, or something like that.  

I look at lots of stuff... taptones, mass, wood properties, thicknesses, arching height, and other absolute stiffness measurements to get some idea where I am, but don't have any precise goal.

 

I am not sure if I can call myself a plate tuner.  But anyway, I'm hoping if someone could point me towards how I could deepen the sound on the D and A strings just a bit without changing (much) the rest of the violin by "tuning" the top plate.  My top plate is sitting at 62g with bar and M5 is 370Hz.  It's almost 2.7mm everywhere.  Suggestions and insights are welcome.

 

You might need to do something different with the back (?)

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I am not sure if I can call myself a plate tuner.  But anyway, I'm hoping if someone could point me towards how I could deepen the sound on the D and A strings just a bit without changing (much) the rest of the violin by "tuning" the top plate.  My top plate is sitting at 62g with bar and M5 is 370Hz.  It's almost 2.7mm everywhere.  Suggestions and insights are welcome.

I will hazard a guess that your lower bout bass-side of the belly is too thick. Try that for starters.

 

Mike

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I am not sure if I can call myself a plate tuner.  But anyway, I'm hoping if someone could point me towards how I could deepen the sound on the D and A strings just a bit without changing (much) the rest of the violin by "tuning" the top plate.  My top plate is sitting at 62g with bar and M5 is 370Hz.  It's almost 2.7mm everywhere.  Suggestions and insights are welcome.

 

I wonder if you might not want to start a thread on this issue. It's very interesting,  and would be nice to have some opinions as to the solution(s) all in one place. These tend to be the meateast threads on MN - real goldmines.

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Everyone has to have some way to decide when to stop removing wood.

I think a "tuner" would have a specific numerical target of some sort... a ratio of taptones, or massxtaptone, or something like that.

I look at lots of stuff... taptones, mass, wood properties, thicknesses, arching height, and other absolute stiffness measurements to get some idea where I am, but don't have any precise goal.

You might need to do something different with the back (?)

Don, I admire you engineering skills! I work with world class mathematicians in optimazation algorithms. It's a privilege!

And you are right, it is indeed the back!

I'm a simple tuner (manager), my staff is helping me with all kinds of stuff (including sticking holes in Violin plate tuning)

Several of them are members of mensa.

DGV,

I know how to reproduce plates!

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I will hazard a guess that your lower bout bass-side of the belly is too thick. Try that for starters.

 

Mike

 

That's what I would try too... but I would thin below and to the side of the thick central area, and do the same above the thick area, on the bass side of the upper bout.  I believe that would put more meat on the D string; not sure about the A.

 

Several of them are members of mensa.

That's not necessarily a positive attribute.  Many years ago I joined just to see if I could, and what it was like.  I'd say the few meetings I attended were gatherings of social misfits, even moreso than a meeting of  violin makers.  :)

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That's what I would try too... but I would thin below and to the side of the thick central area, and do the same above the thick area, on the bass side of the upper bout.  I believe that would put more meat on the D string; not sure about the A.

 

This is beginning to sound dangerously like Fry’s Strad holes.   :ph34r:

 

 

 

That's not necessarily a positive attribute.  Many years ago I joined just to see if I could, and what it was like.  I'd say the few meetings I attended were gatherings of social misfits, even moreso than a meeting of  violin makers.   :)

Because I have the same IQ as Bill Gates... shouldn’t I be a billionaire too?   :unsure:

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