Guadagnini and Cozio

[duane88]

I guess we are lucky to all of a sudden (meaning within the last 15 years) have some spectacular new books available, the Rosengard and Scrollavezza to name two.  The trouble now is that we can't say anything from memory in fear we've forgotten what we read, or forgotten where we read it.     But without re-reading everything, I'll risk saying that even if G.B. DID stretch the truth here and there, so what.  He was feeding a large family and never seemed to shirk where it is important:  in the violins.  And when he died, one cries at how little he had amassed from a life full of hard knocks.  He didn't, to my knowledge, start spouting off about his "asymetric graduation" or his "secret varnish" to promote himself as the greatest thing since sliced bread, or take out expensive full page ads in trade magazines.  If anything, he under-promoted himself and it took time itself to bring him to the list of the greats, which is going to be the only final test for any of us including a lot of current makers who are living like kings today compared to poor G.B.  

What I enjoy is the fact that there is actually scholarly research going on and being published.

 

For years, what we have had is lore and stories handed down from generation to generation without any factual support. The stories are cool, but they are just stories. And sometimes, the stories are embellished, perhaps even a bit with each generation.

[MatthewThomas]

Duane,

 

In what little I have read about Count Cozio I took his role as more of a connoisseur, potentially the first violin aficionado.  I didn't get the feeling that he was particularly business-oriented due to his station in life. They have his Carteggio at the library. I will try to view that one too.  

 

Vuillaume is such a different character.  I am certain he would have been interesting to know, but I think he viewed existence with a much wider grey area than most people do. 

 

I wasn't aware that A. Gagliano had been 100% established as a non-Amati/Stradivari pupil.  Has the riddle of his apprenticeship been solved?

[Addie]

What I enjoy is the fact that there is actually scholarly research going on and being published.

For years, what we have had is lore and stories handed down from generation to generation without any factual support. The stories are cool, but they are just stories. And sometimes, the stories are embellished, perhaps even a bit with each generation.

You're implying that there is no documentary evidence in the Hill's books? And they weren't the first to go digging in archives.

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/002450706

[duane88]

Oh, the Hills did quite a bit, but their research was more for a competitive edge withing the trade rather than scholarship, as I understand it. 

 

No, they weren't the first, but let us consider the fact that much of what has been discovered and much of what is known has been withheld. It's a secretive trade.

 

Try getting access to the candid information in the Hill Diaries.

 

 

I just think that it is good to see more real, honest-to-goodness academic research being published. I enjoy reading Henley, but...

[duane88]

 

I wasn't aware that A. Gagliano had been 100% established as a non-Amati/Stradivari pupil.  Has the riddle of his apprenticeship been solved?

As was mentioned earlier, it is difficult, if not impossible, to prove the negative, but i think that his work speaks for itself. It is not Cremonese, and if he studied with uncle Strad, he didn't bring what he saw in Cremona back to Naples.

[Michael Appleman]

I wasn't aware that A. Gagliano had been 100% established as a non-Amati/Stradivari pupil.  Has the riddle of his apprenticeship been solved?

 

It's been a long time that A. Gagliano has been crossed off the list of Stradivari pupils. His technique of making is completely different from the Cremonese style, even if his varnish was beautiful and very Cremona-like. A 2010 VSA talk by Chris Reuning shows a potential teacher of A. Gagliano in a German maker (Mattia Poppella?) who was in Naples at the right time, and who's recently discovered surviving work shows similarity to A. Gagliano.

 

That said, archival research shows that Omobono Stradivari was in Naples around 1698. What was he doing there? I haven't found any articles that give precise details, so maybe he was doing business, selling violins, giving varnish workshops, maybe just enjoying the pizza and the pastafazoul (pasta e faggioli for the rest of the peninsula), but if A. Gagliano did put "alumnus Stradivari" on his labels (I'm not aware of anyone saying he did this himself, it could all be later apocryphal labels), maybe that was also just a slight exageration based on some real contact with Omobono.

[Addie]

Oh, the Hills did quite a bit, but their research was more for a competitive edge withing the trade rather than scholarship, as I understand it. 

 

No, they weren't the first, but let us consider the fact that much of what has been discovered and much of what is known has been withheld. It's a secretive trade.

 

Try getting access to the candid information in the Hill Diaries.

 

 

I just think that it is good to see more real, honest-to-goodness academic research being published. I enjoy reading Henley, but...

Well, since they had to be self-funded, agendas are to be expected. But the Hill Strad book is still pretty good. Some of their contemporaries are laughable today... Petherick's Guarneri stands out.

And the Cozio book is a bit humorous based on what we now know, but the inventories, for example, are solid fact, even if the count was a bit slovenly in his descriptions.

[Roger Hargrave]

What I enjoy is the fact that there is actually scholarly research going on and being published.

 

For years, what we have had is lore and stories handed down from generation to generation without any factual support. The stories are cool, but they are just stories. And sometimes, the stories are embellished, perhaps even a bit with each generation.

 

Without coming down hard on this one. Stories are sometimes all that we have and history teaches us that in spite of the kind of embellishment such stories often receive over the years, important grains of truth are often contained within. Troy is perhaps the most obvious example, but there are thousands of others, many even in our own field. For example, it now appears that Del Gesu was an upstanding citizen and that his prison violins are a myth. Nevertheless although Del Gesu may not have been a criminal, it is looking as if at least one member of the Guarneri family was.

[Michael Appleman]

For example, it now appears that Del Gesu was an upstanding citizen and that his prison violins are a myth. Nevertheless although Del Gesu may not have been a criminal, it is looking as if at least one member of the Guarneri family was.

 

I've always wondered if the "prison Joseph" story wasn't conflated with the Grancino saga?

 

What's this about another Guarneri? Are you refering to Joseph Filius' debt problems?

[Roger Hargrave]

I've always wondered if the "prison Joseph" story wasn't conflated with the Grancino saga?

 

What's this about another Guarneri? Are you refering to Joseph Filius' debt problems?

Sorry, but this is not my story and because I am not sure if this is general knowledge yet, I cannot tell you. It would not be fair.

[Piergiuseppe]

Omobono Stradivari was in Naples around 1698. What was he doing there?

 

At that time Napoli had two opera houses. Was the center of the Italian music. Great musicians and composers. The biggest Alessandro Scarlatti.

[D. Piolle]

I've always wondered if the "prison Joseph" story wasn't conflated with the Grancino saga?

 

What's this about another Guarneri? Are you refering to Joseph Filius' debt problems?

Hi Michael,

 

It seems like Giovanni Grancino didn't get in jail, but spent the rest of his life in a monastary.

[Roger Hargrave]

The price of violin books has always been a huge problem. I know this because I have one of the biggest collections that I know of. I have more or less spent my pension fund collecting them. I don't know what the answer is to this problem. Really good violin books almost always cost a small fortune to produce, most of which is never recuperated. The fact that, until recently they had to be printed in limited numbers, now makes them even rarer and ever more expensive. Since most of these books are unlikely ever to be reprinted, it seems to me that their authors could do more to place them on the net even if this were in a reduced form.     

[Michael Appleman]

It's the bit about a "duel" with another violin-maker that seems to have been bandied about with different protagonists, until documents showed recently it actually happened between Grancino and...I'm drawing a blank...,was it Pasta or someone else?

[Michael Appleman]

It's been often suggested, ever since the Hill's Guarneri book, that something wasn't right in the Guarneri household, something that drove the two Peters away, and found Del Gesu moving out and working under IHS instead of Sta. Teresa. It will be interesting to read new research when it comes out!

[D. Piolle]

Yes it was Pasta as long as I remember, the other, the man who died, was Santino Lavazza ( said to be his rival ), Both of them from the Milanese woodworkers guild.

That is at least what the story tells.

[Piergiuseppe]

Really good violin books almost always cost a small fortune to produce.     

use

 

 

solves many problems

[Roger Hargrave]

use

 

 

solves many problems

 

I use Latex every night. My wife and I have both had Latex pajamas and sleeping masks for years. Its just something about the smell. Can't see how it will help me copy books though?  

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Which issue and can we read it online?

 

19 #2 Nov. 2003 (Proc. 31st Conv.)       What Musicians Want in a Stringed Instrument Joel Becktell, Moderator 15   Thickness Graduation Mapping: Surprises And Discoveries Jeffrey Loen 41   The Piatigorsky Foundation Evan Drachman 67   Perspectives on the Authentication of Bows Paul Childs 87   Violin Expertise and the Instruments of the Classical Period  Robert Bein 139   The Violins of Lorenzo Guadagnini? Chris Reuning 153   Expertise Forum Robert Bein, Paul Childs and Chris Reuning 189   The VSA-Oberlin Setup Workshop David Burgess 207

[actonern]

"...My wife and I have both had Latex pajamas and sleeping masks for years..."

 

Out of fascination, I don't suppose there'd be anything like photos?

[Violadamore]

I use Latex every night. My wife and I have both had Latex pajamas and sleeping masks for years. Its just something about the smell. Can't see how it will help me copy books though?  

So why can't you write easily salable pornographic trash and use it to subsidize your serious violin books?  ["NEW from bestselling author ROGER HARGRAVE, 50 Shades of Cremonese Red....."]   

[Will L]

What I enjoy is the fact that there is actually scholarly research going on and being published.

 

For years, what we have had is lore and stories handed down from generation to generation without any factual support. The stories are cool, but they are just stories. And sometimes, the stories are embellished, perhaps even a bit with each generation.

This is in reference to my post 45.

 

I agree. And we are very fortunate.  My point was that I now have around 10 books on G.B. and I can't remember where I read what.      And finding specific pages that support anything I want to say are getting harder to find.  If I had only one book that would offer a different kind of problem.

[duane88]

I tend to read them all over and over. I think that I've read Chris Reuning's Bergonzi book half a dozen times now. I just keep reading until it sticks!

 

"...My wife and I have both had Latex pajamas and sleeping masks for years..."

 

Out of fascination, I don't suppose there'd be anything like photos?

Now that book would be really, really expensive book to produce, probably bordering on 1/2 of his personal accumulation. I say bordering on because someone would surely help under value his wood...

 

As for the stories, I was re-reading (see above...) the beginning of Duane's GBG book and he mentions Doring's reliance on secondary sources for the book. Yes, all that we have in some cases are stories, and the hope is that those stories will be subjected to a search for a primary source to verify them. 

 

I had the pleasure of an unexpected lunch with Mr. Milliant, a few years ago, when he was up here on vacation, and the afternoon was filled with stories, both his and second-hand. I wished that I had been in possession of some sort of recording device as I am sure that if i were to re-tell some of the tales, I'd not get them quite right, and whomever I told them to would go on and do the same.

[Will L]

I tend to read them all over and over. I think that I've read Chris Reuning's Bergonzi book half a dozen times now. I just keep reading until it sticks!

 

Now that book would be really, really expensive book to produce, probably bordering on 1/2 of his personal accumulation. I say bordering on because someone would surely help under value his wood...

 

As for the stories, I was re-reading (see above...) the beginning of Duane's GBG book and he mentions Doring's reliance on secondary sources for the book. Yes, all that we have in some cases are stories, and the hope is that those stories will be subjected to a search for a primary source to verify them. 

 

I had the pleasure of an unexpected lunch with Mr. Milliant, a few years ago, when he was up here on vacation, and the afternoon was filled with stories, both his and second-hand. I wished that I had been in possession of some sort of recording device as I am sure that if i were to re-tell some of the tales, I'd not get them quite right, and whomever I told them to would go on and do the same.

But that's one book read a dozen times.  My situation is 10 books read 1.5 times, each.  Plus, I can't afford "Prevagen."  

 

It is probably true that in a vacuum of proven facts, it is human nature to make do with what we have at our disposal.  And that can take the form of making assumptions based on our personal experience and observations.

 

My favorite story of the type was told to me by Tommy Bertucca who said, "Mr. Sacconi has concluded that Stradivari was a tyrant to his sons."  Then he proceeded to show me a mark on a Francesco Stradivari which "proved" it.  I wonder how THAT would stand up in a court of law.   

[Violadamore]

Yes, all that we have in some cases are stories, and the hope is that those stories will be subjected to a search for a primary source to verify them. 

 

 

And then pray to the Muses that the sort of fellows who'd sell Tyrolean as Italian, and/or who're suspected of falsifying their parentage, work history, or education never lied to census takers, tax assessors, and other record keeping bureaucrats, right? 

 

Then there's the accuracy and interpretation of anecdotal sources.  Based on stories current on this forum, I predict that 300 years from now, our successors will be arguing over whether the "divine Yorkshireman", Roger Hargrave, was ever a minor German noble or not, or if Burgess was originally in the wool business etc.