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As I understand the larger point, there's no way you can accurately do curtate cycloid cross arches by eye.  Whether one wants to do curtate cycloid arches is another matter...

 

 

I wonder. If a maker can visually recognize a Cremonese arching, and a Cremonese arching happens to be a curtate cycloid, wouldn't it follow that at least some practiced makers can visually recognize when they've achieved this arching, and know what it takes to get there? Maybe not perfectly, but as close as the Cremonese probably did?

 

I'm not saying that just anyone can actually carve a certain shape just because they can recognize it, but some people are pretty darned good at it.

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Interesting discussion... drawing like other skills requires practice.  Most young children love to draw and sketch upto the age of  12  or 13 (approx) after that their eye tells them that what they are drawing and the actual object are not the same and most children will stop drawing because they see their 'mistakes'.  This is when learning to draw the 'real' world (3D) on paper (2D) becomes critical and some kids can learn on their own but most will require instruction.  Most students do not take art as an option in high school.

 

When I was teaching high school math ( Vector Algebra ) I would ask student to draw a box or two planes that interesect in a line and most of them if not all can not do it well but with some simple instruction (tips) this type of 3d drawing is quite simple.

 

Now there are tools that students can use that will draw these objects for them  ie  Google's Sketchup, Rhino 3D, Grasshopper 3D  etc

 

Here is a video of a scroll designed in Rhino 3D.. Not quite a violin scroll but this looks like a tool that can be used to draw surfaces that can be described mathematically...   ie curtate cycloid surface with varying height and width

 

link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unzRLyaB3S8

 

here is another link without instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCUyKV8V2D8

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You may be right.  The thing that I find interesting about CC arches (in relation to fiddle making) is that they are architecturally conceived, rigidly formulaic and so either "right" or "wrong."   Carving a round ball would be similarly difficult without templates (for me!).

 

Since so much else in violin design is demonstrably defined by theoretical or geometric design, it easy to wonder whether the shape of arches was not similarly conceived, rather than being left to the whim of the maker.  The remarkable correspondence between the CC cross arches overlaid on Strad posters of Cremonese instruments is really striking to me.

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 The remarkable correspondence between the CC cross arches overlaid on Strad posters of Cremonese instruments is really striking to me.

 

When I first made a set of templates from the Biddulph book I proudly labelled them with the name and year of the violin.

 

One day, I decided to test them against all the other full-size drawings of Strads, GDGs etc I had.  I was surprised by how good the fit was. I then rubbed off the name/year and merrily accepted then as 'good enough' for my needs.

 

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Interesting discussion... drawing like other skills requires practice.  Most young children love to draw and sketch upto the age of  12  or 13 (approx) after that their eye tells them that what they are drawing and the actual object are not the same and most children will stop drawing because they see their 'mistakes'.  This is when learning to draw the 'real' world (3D) on paper (2D) becomes critical and some kids can learn on their own but most will require instruction.  Most students do not take art as an option in high school.

 

When I was teaching high school math ( Vector Algebra ) I would ask student to draw a box or two planes that interesect in a line and most of them if not all can not do it well but with some simple instruction (tips) this type of 3d drawing is quite simple.

 

Now there are tools that students can use that will draw these objects for them  ie  Google's Sketchup, Rhino 3D, Grasshopper 3D  etc

 

Here is a video of a scroll designed in Rhino 3D.. Not quite a violin scroll but this looks like a tool that can be used to draw surfaces that can be described mathematically...   ie curtate cycloid surface with varying height and width

 

link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unzRLyaB3S8

 

here is another link without instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCUyKV8V2D8

Catnip,

 

Ok. Now all we need is someone to load curtate cycloids into Sketchup and draw a violln. In Sketchup, I believe the curve shadows will show up. Then if a second drawing is made with non-cc curves, we could learn whether or not the eye can tell the difference.

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When I first made a set of templates from the Biddulph book I proudly labelled them with the name and year of the violin.

 

One day, I decided to test them against all the other full-size drawings of Strads, GDGs etc I had.  I was surprised by how good the fit was. I then rubbed off the name/year and merrily accepted then as 'good enough' for my needs.

 

Janito,

 

I hope I can arrange to visit you. See your work and templates.

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I probably mentioned this a while ago:

 

There seems to be a pervasive idea that Cremonese arching is all over the map. A few years ago I settled on one set of templates to use, and a year or two ago I made a Rugeri model violin using an old form I'd made in the 80s, with my generic templates. One of my partners, not knowing what I'd done, commented when the violin was done that I'd nailed the Rugeri arch perfectly. And I felt that way, too.

 

What casual observers don't realize is that a violin is an impression created by a number of factors interacting, and the arch's appearance is part of that interaction with f-holes, corners, etc. That shifting impression, based on surroundings, is why I'm saying that if you want to really learn how it's done, you should do it, not talk about it, not try to draw it, or any other irrelevant thing.

 

It seems to be a modern conceit that violin making is an art, done by artists expressing their wonderful freedom of expression. I doubt very much that anyone in the 1600s or 1700s was thinking anything like that at all. There's certainly no evidence at all of that in the original violins, and coming at if from that angle is a certain way to run off the track into the bushes.

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Where does that come from? Musicians or amateurs? I rarely hear pro makers talk like that.

Perhaps it depends on whether or not a particular maker IS an artist, or ISN'T an artist.

Perhaps, makers can be craftsmen, or artists, or a combination of the two?

Would it matter? and would being an artist be a detracting factor of necessity as a maker?

I like this argument - as, now were entering my favorite territory. As an artist/violin maker, I believe that a person could either be an artist, with regard to his or her making, or not. What would it matter? What would it contribute to either making him or her a better or not better maker?

Nothing, that's what.

It would all depend on (the quality of) his or her output.

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Interesting discussion... drawing like other skills requires practice.  Most young children love to draw and sketch upto the age of  12  or 13 (approx) after that their eye tells them that what they are drawing and the actual object are not the same and most children will stop drawing because they see their 'mistakes'.  This is when learning to draw the 'real' world (3D) on paper (2D) becomes critical and some kids can learn on their own but most will require instruction.  Most students do not take art as an option in high school.

 

...

In my neck of the woods, we have two Universities. It might have changed, but several years ago the output from the Visual Arts students from each was strikingly different.

The one university stressed developing drawing skills prior to pursuing 'artistic freedom'. The second university stressed artistic freedom.

Guess which university had the overall 'better' or quality, output?

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  Jim, Try it, tape a smooth piece of paper to a smooth wall and draw a line vertically three feet long or a meter.. which ever. Then 'proof' the pencil line, one pencil lead wide, with the straight edge. Look at it , then redraw the line. As I described. let me know how it goes! 

While you're at it, you might try bending your yard or meter stick a little to get your longitudinal arch as FredN has done.

 

This is surprisingly difficult to do unless you bend it the flat way instead of the edge way.  But that's a lesson too.

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One day, I decided to test them against all the other full-size drawings of Strads, GDGs etc I had.  I was surprised by how good the fit was. I then rubbed off the name/year and merrily accepted then as 'good enough' for my needs.

 

 

Acknowledgement: I did this because I wanted to check something Michael D. had written.

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While you're at it, you might try bending your yard or meter stick a little to get your longitudinal arch as FredN has done.

 

This is surprisingly difficult to do unless you bend it the flat way instead of the edge way.  But that's a lesson too.

 

 I already have.  Many, many times. 

 

When artists make pictures they don't do it to self indulgently 'express' themselves, really they do it because building a picture is a challenging thing. When you make a picture, violin or sculpture you're not doing it to express yourself, that's for delusional people. You make things because they need to be made and while you make them, if you are in touch with the process you just do what needs to be done. 

 

Making violins, painting and doing sculpture are all the same thing basically just in different mediums. If you parse them into separate boxes you may miss why they are related.  Some think there is one way to do a task, but in reality there are many ways of arriving at the same or similar  result. It bothers me a great deal when people don't respect another persons right to have their own way of getting at a subject. It won't kill you to think that someone else needs to think about it in a way that is not your own particular way.

 

And the odd thing is creative people resist being strong armed into an idea, just because it's difficult to change. In three years time they may come to see your way of doing it as perhaps better, but by being mean to them you actually push them away from your intention to help them.  If you say Hey your way is pretty cool or you try to find a good aspect in it for yourself you can engage the other person more than slamming them and forcing your heavy handed opinion on them. 

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As I understand the larger point, there's no way you can accurately do curtate cycloid cross arches by eye. Whether one wants to do curtate cycloid arches is another matter...

And for anyone who is unfamiliar with these arches, here's an article from an old Strad in which Quentin Playfair (A Canadian, we're so very proud!) describes it well...

http://www.platetuning.org/Cremonesesarching_Part_1.pdf

I wonder. If a maker can visually recognize a Cremonese arching, and a Cremonese arching happens to be a curtate cycloid, wouldn't it follow that at least some practiced makers can visually recognize when they've achieved this arching, and know what it takes to get there? Maybe not perfectly, but as close as the Cremonese probably did?

I'm not saying that just anyone can actually carve a certain shape just because they can recognize it, but some people are pretty darned good at it.

It is not that difficult to make arches very close to curtate cycloid by eyes with a little practice. Arch height and length wise curve shape will give the variation but keeping the same distinct look

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As I understand the larger point, there's no way you can accurately do curtate cycloid cross arches by eye.  Whether one wants to do curtate cycloid arches is another matter...

 

And for anyone who is unfamiliar with these arches, here's an article from an old Strad in which Quentin Playfair (A Canadian, we're so very proud!) describes it well...

http://www.platetuning.org/Cremonesesarching_Part_1.pdf

I skimmed this document and noticed that the last image on the right shows the curtate cycloid NOT fitting very well.

 

Do we have a math whiz on Maestronet who can show the equation for the inflection point of curtate cycloid curves. For someone in this field, I bet it's easy.  Thanks in advance.

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I skimmed this document and noticed that the last image on the right shows the curtate cycloid NOT fitting very well.

 

Do we have a math whiz on Maestronet who can show the equation for the inflection point of curtate cycloid curves. For someone in this field, I bet it's easy.  Thanks in advance.

Are you no longer happy with the CC program you have a link to on your web site?  It's what I used.

 

-Jim

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I skimmed this document and noticed that the last image on the right shows the curtate cycloid NOT fitting very well.

 

Do we have a math whiz on Maestronet who can show the equation for the inflection point of curtate cycloid curves. For someone in this field, I bet it's easy.  Thanks in advance.

Give me the equation, John. The infection point is where the second derivative goes to zero. You can google for that explanation. Maybe Wikipedia has it.

Mike

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Are you no longer happy with the CC program you have a link to on your web site?  It's what I used.

 

-Jim

Jim,

I have confidence that that program works for generating curtate cycloids. For my current violin, the Titian, I am using the Strad Magazine drawing. I don't make violins fast enough to try using my own cycloid curves.

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Jim,

I have confidence that that program works for generating curtate cycloids. For my current violin, the Titian, I am using the Strad Magazine drawing. I don't make violins fast enough to try using my own cycloid curves.

I don't know, I bet I could win in a who's slower contest. B)   I made my long arches using the program and then tweaking the arch based on the poster until I arrived at something that looked right against the poster.  The back arch being a radius that flattens out a little towards the end.  I'm probably self delusional here.  I used the program for the cross arches using the long arch heights.  I was very surprised how well the CC cross arches lined up with the poster after I cut the cross arches into half templates.  The biggest variance between my templates and the poster is in the belly C-bout and the back lower corner templates where the Titian cross arches are a little fuller.

 

Cheers,

Jim

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