wooden Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Hello everybody. I have another violin for identification. Can anyone help please? Any post will be appreciated. I hope the photos are clear enough. The one of the label is not very good but it proved very difficult to photograph as it is almost faded. Thanks in advance.
jacobsaunders Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Well, ladies and gentlemen, I thought it might be from Mirecourt ca. 1830/1840 which puts it right outside of any area of competence I might be conceited enough to attribute myself
Michael Appleman Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 In terms of outline, f-holes and funky scroll (what's left of it) I had a violin like this that D'Attili called "old Flemish," for whatever that's worth. Varnish was very different, however. This ticks some Mirecourt boxes for me, but doesn't quite ring all the French bells. I was thinking 'is this ca1800 Füssen?" so outside my area of experience.
jacobsaunders Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Well there aren't really any early 1800ish Füssen makers, 'cos a nasty little Frenchman had made them all march to Russia
Michael Appleman Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Wow, Jacob! I have never read, discussed nor even imagined the consequences of Napoleon's expansionism on violin-making in German-speaking areas. I have been aware of effects on the Italian peninsula, for instance the annexation of Piedmont paving the way for the advent of the 19thc. Turin school. The result in Spain was the wholesale pillaging of fine Cremonese instruments from wealthy and/or aristocratic families (and the arrival of a few French makers). So Füssen was emptied of its craftsmen? What about Klingenthal, Neukirchen, and Mittenwald? With the warfare, occupation and conscription going on throughout the lands invaded by Napoleon, 1799-1813 was surely not a fertile time for many violin-makers. Oddly, there was alot of great music being written and performed, and perhaps Vienna and the Austrian Empire was somthing of a refuge for musicians and makers from the Germans states?
Christopher Reuning Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Wooden, I think these guys are being just a little tough on you. I think your violin has a chance to be something decent. I don't think it is possible to get a good opinion from posting pictures online, however...you need to show it in person to an expert. Christopher Reuning
Michael Appleman Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Ouch I was going to make a comment last night on how I assume Chris Reuning meant "in person" by writing "real expert," in Jacob Saunder's case at least, but I see he edited his post. While I do not wish to claim to be a real expert, I am glad I can once again bask in the ambivalence of not being a phoney non-expert!
wooden Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Posted January 25, 2015 I really appreciate all and every post. I know they are from people willing to help. And I'm very grateful for that.
baroquecello Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 trying to learn here, please comment, especially on any of my observations that you believe are nonsense: I think its quite an interesting violin. The outline with the very "open" c bouts, relatively small corners (that I find don't deserve the negatively charged adjective "stubby"), relatively wide upper bouts compared to the lower ones. I find the f-holes quite graceful, straight, but with a soft bend at especially the top end, which is compensated for by the shape of the upper wings, so that it doesn't look exaggerated. On the whole it looks like something by someone who had his own ideas and wasn't trying to copy anyone else.
Ron1 Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Apologies! I did understand; it was just another of my clumsy attempts at humor.
Michael Appleman Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 trying to learn here, please comment, especially on any of my observations that you believe are nonsense: I think its quite an interesting violin. The outline with the very "open" c bouts, relatively small corners (that I find don't deserve the negatively charged adjective "stubby"), relatively wide upper bouts compared to the lower ones. I find the f-holes quite graceful, straight, but with a soft bend at especially the top end, which is compensated for by the shape of the upper wings, so that it doesn't look exaggerated. On the whole it looks like something by someone who had his own ideas and wasn't trying to copy anyone else. Baroque,your observations seem keen. For my part, I am not reacting to these sorts of details when I'm wondering where this violin came from. I'm reacting to the existance or non-existance of a "flash" impression whether I've seen something that looks like it came from the same hand. If not, something similar as if it came from the same shop, or a maker somehow connected. As I mentioned, I got a very vague flash of similarity with a nice 18thc. violin that one expert called Flemish, (of which i've seen another), but it wasn't a "oh these were made by the same person" flash that one can get when you really do find a match. Since I'm not getting a strong "flash," I start looking at those details, and I'm seeing what you're seeing, but from what I can see in these photos I can't draw any conclusions. The slightly Strad-ish f-holes with flattened ends do kind of look like Mirecourt (think of Nicolas or Mathieu) as do the big visible pin in the back, the purfling fairly close to the edge. Those "prim" corners and the well channelled edge-work do not, nor does the "generous" scroll nor the thick, dark and soft-looking varnish. Saying anything else from these photos would be pure speculation on my part. Maybe Chris Reuning is getting a "flash" of recognition with violins with which he is familiar. Pure speculation again on my part, but maybe something to do with late 18thc. Milan or Piacenza (the other guy, not Lorenzini)?
Ben Hebbert Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Having spent five minutes looking at the photo - I kind of agree with the consensus, for this kind of violin we really do need to have better photographs if anyone can say anything sensible. It's the kind of violin that could easily have a fake-Italian label in it - Lorenzini is exactly the kind of crackpot label you would expect to see on something like this - but its not likely. The very circular upper and lower bouts are interesting. So is the remnants of the scroll. I have too many conflicting theories to pull any of them out of the hat. Show it so someone in person, if you can, or give us better photos if you are enjoying the discussion! Kindest regards
wooden Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Posted January 25, 2015 Hi Ben. Thank you very much for your post. I'm of course enjoying this discussion and I will try to make better photos and post them.
Addie Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 From what little I can see of the label, which I have no reason to doubt, my "flash" impression is that it is written in a Romance language. That's aside from the obvious Latin "fecit'" which is the only clear bit. I suppose there's a possibility that the place name is one of those English ones with "le" in the middle.
Ben Hebbert Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Yes, I see fecit too, but can you find any other words that you can identify? Or try other photos of the label?
Addie Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 Well, the "le" or "la" is either Romance, or English, like Chester le Street or Houghton le Spring. Or not.
Christopher Reuning Posted January 26, 2015 Report Posted January 26, 2015 If you agree that the pegbox is replaced and ignore it's hideous shape, the volute is actually quite good. I also like the outline and the label looks compelling. soundholes are good too. One must beware of reaching too far when evaluating a violin from pictures. I think it is enough to say that the violin is good enough to bring in for further study. Going beyond that is probably not too wise or viable
wooden Posted January 26, 2015 Author Report Posted January 26, 2015 If you agree that the pegbox is replaced and ignore it's hideous shape, the volute is actually quite good. I also like the outline and the label looks compelling. soundholes are good too. One must beware of reaching too far when evaluating a violin from pictures. I think it is enough to say that the violin is good enough to bring in for further study. Going beyond that is probably not too wise or viable Thanks again for your post. I can agree with you in that it is risky to evaluate from pictures. But meanwhile I take it to a qualified luthier I offer some you more photos to study while being aware of its limitations. Thanks in advance.
martin swan Posted January 26, 2015 Report Posted January 26, 2015 Is that Semola fecit Cremonae? Perhaps the label is something close to Simone Semola fecit Bresciae 1592 De onore tuti la Santi Seni Francesco. I have a feeling the repair (?) label below might tell us more about the geographical origins of this violin. Can you photograph that?
wooden Posted January 26, 2015 Author Report Posted January 26, 2015 Thanks Martin. Yes I also think it says "Semola" and "Cremonae" or "Romanae" but it's not vey clear. I'm posting phoos of the repair label. Hope it helps. Regards.
Blank face Posted January 26, 2015 Report Posted January 26, 2015 theodor heinrich heberlein There are two different styles of writing on the repair label, "Instrumentenmacher" in Kurrent/Sütterlin (as it should be expected), "Heberlein" in latin handwriting. Strange! The Heberlein family was located in Markneukirchen, although it's not completely excluded, that T.H.H. sometimes worked in Nürnberg (must look into my books ) I can't help, but I heard some bohemian bells ringing, but I better should keep quiet...
vathek Posted January 26, 2015 Report Posted January 26, 2015 don't know how much this helps except the 'fecit cremonae' is more clear.
martin swan Posted January 26, 2015 Report Posted January 26, 2015 Hi Wooden, What is the back length? What is the bottom rib construction (ie. one piece, two piece, two-piece bookmatched or two-piece but continuous)? Is the purfling is dyed wood or ebony? Doesn't look like ebony on the photos ... I agree that this violin has some nice features - the lower f-hole tongues are particularly distinctive - but I would be looking more in Heberlein's neck of the woods than in Semola's (give or take a few hundred miles).
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